Late night flight with a strange request...

[kellwolf]

Well, if ya wanna get technical......

Most of the Muslims Muhammad converted were of Christian or Jewish faith and were already praying toward Jerusalem. They started praying towards Mecca as a break from their former faith. And if you wanna talk religions "stealing" from other religions, read the Epic of Gilgamesh. You'll find a lot of similarities between that one and another reiligion.

[Pooch]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, if ya wanna get technical......

Most of the Muslims Muhammad converted were of Christian or Jewish faith and were already praying toward Jerusalem. They started praying towards Mecca as a break from their former faith. And if you wanna talk religions "stealing" from other religions, read the Epic of Gilgamesh. You'll find a lot of similarities between that one and another reiligion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just read a synopsis of 'Gilgamesh' and aside from a story about a flood, I don't see any major similarities to any big religions, Christianity included (that was your implication, right?) Maybe you can enlighten us non-epic reading folks (no sarcasm meant; I really am interested).

As far as Mohammed goes, I have no problem with people choosing to worship anyone...whether it's a wife-beating, 'infidel'-killing pedophile (it's all in the Koran folks!) or not. As I recall, though, he couldn't convert Christians and Jews (most, anyway), resulting in his writing in the Koran that the 'infidels' should be killed. And he shamelessly stole ideas from both religions to combine them to his liking (true, not very original). He did get the idea for praying towards Mecca from Jews praying towards Jerusalem, but not because of laziness after their conversion. He chatted it up a lot with the local infidels before trying to convert them (and eventually butcher them) and that's where he got his idea from.

Of course, this all happened 1400 years ago and I wasn't there.

[kellwolf]

[ QUOTE ]
I just read a synopsis of 'Gilgamesh' and aside from a story about a flood, I don't see any major similarities to any big religions, Christianity included (that was your implication, right?) Maybe you can enlighten us non-epic reading folks (no sarcasm meant; I really am interested).

[/ QUOTE ]

The flood was in fact my main point. Gilgamesh himself has a lot of Christ-like qualities. Then again there are multiple examples of flood stories (or generally wipe the slate clean stories) in religions pre-dating Christianity. The resurrection is a straight copy of Wiccan beliefs that the goddess dies every winter to rise again in the spring. Timing of Easter isn't an accident either. It's about the same time as the summer solstice, the time the goddess is believed to be re-born. Even the virgin birth is taken from older religions. When you get right down to it, none of the religions are really original.

[ QUOTE ]
I have no problem with people choosing to worship anyone...whether it's a wife-beating, 'infidel'-killing pedophile (it's all in the Koran folks!)

[/ QUOTE ]

Like it or not, it's all in the Bible, too. Read the Old Testament and you'll see a lot of that stuff.

[ QUOTE ]
As I recall, though, he couldn't convert Christians and Jews (most, anyway), resulting in his writing in the Koran that the 'infidels' should be killed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, if you just focus on radical Islam. That's like calling are Christians butchers because they bomb abortion clinics. Islam is the most peaceful religion, while at the same time it is the most violent. It depends on the specific person's interpretation of the Koran, much like it depends on the person's interpretation of the Bible.

[ QUOTE ]
He did get the idea for praying towards Mecca from Jews praying towards Jerusalem, but not because of laziness after their conversion. He chatted it up a lot with the local infidels before trying to convert them (and eventually butcher them) and that's where he got his idea from.


[/ QUOTE ]

Don't really reacall Muhammed "butchering" Jews or Christians. Drug into war with them, maybe. But not "butchering." In fact, if you look back through history, Muslims have generally been very tolerant of Christians and Jews. When the Muslims took control of Jerusalem, they agreed to let the Christians and Jews continue to practice their religions openly. In fact, some of the Muslim shrines in Jerusalem are actually to Moses and Abraham. Now, if you wanna talk the Crusades, then we can go Christians and Muslims butchering each other in an all out holy war, and we can also go into who started it. After that, we can talk about the Inquisition. I never said that praying towards Mecca instead of Jerusalem was due to "laziness after their conversion." I said he did that to try to ease converting them. Mecca happened to be the number one holy city in the Muslim faith. Jerusalem is number three.

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Thank you Kellwolf, that was a very nice post to oppose what Pooch said.


To answer the main question about muslims praying, I say let anyone, be it Christians, Jews, Muslims, [insert any other religion], pray. Just as long as they don't create a safety hazard, I'd be fine with it. Standing in the aisles, I think, would create a safety problem.

I wouldn't care if you pray in your own seat, go right ahead! That goes for all religions.

[Pooch]

Some good points, Kellwolf. This probably isn't the best place for some semi-religious discussion, but I enjoy a debate (if that's what this is) once in a while and I am always up for learning something. And although you may not be able to tell from my previous post, I am relatively open-minded about Islam (although admittedly less so since 9/11). And I'm really not a mean person. I just don't see a lot of evidence of tolerance/peace/open-mindedness on their part, and I do keep up with (and do a lot of research on) current events.
Just for discussion's sake, though:

[ QUOTE ]
Like it or not, it's all in the Bible, too. Read the Old Testament and you'll see a lot of that stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]
You don't see Jesus doing any of that in the New Testament.

[ QUOTE ]
Sure, if you just focus on radical Islam. That's like calling are Christians butchers because they bomb abortion clinics. Islam is the most peaceful religion, while at the same time it is the most violent. It depends on the specific person's interpretation of the Koran, much like it depends on the person's interpretation of the Bible.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not just focusing on the radicals. Mohammed (along with his army) killed 900 Jews at one time for just being Jewish; that's butchering in my book, and this is from a couple different sources. 'Kill' and 'fight' are in the Koran more than the word 'pray'. These 'radical' Islamic schools are predominate in much of the Middle East, and they are teaching kids from before they can even read to hate Christians and Jews. It seems like every terrorist attack (bombs, murders, kidnappings, etc.) in the world in the last 20 years (excluding a couple by the IRA in the UK) have been done by them. Chechnya, Afghanistan, Iraq, Phillipines, USA, India, Israel, Africa, the list goes on...'Radical' Muslims have killed 15,000 people in recent years, and I can count on three fingers the number of mullahs I've read about/ heard of that condemn violence against us 'infidels.' And yes, there are Christians who are bad. No one denies this. But overall, we're talking about a few bad apples, not a large part of the religion (Respectfully--and I've read a bunch of your posts, and DO respect your opinion--you're in denial if you think they're teaching tolerance and peace with the West in some mosque in Pakistan or Saudi Arabia or Indonesia). This is a way of life for a LOT of them.
And yes, I've had Muslim friends, and they're not ALL of that mindset...



[ QUOTE ]
In fact, if you look back through history, Muslims have generally been very tolerant of Christians and Jews...

Now, if you wanna talk the Crusades, then we can go Christians and Muslims butchering each other in an all out holy war, and we can also go into who started it. After that, we can talk about the Inquisition.

[/ QUOTE ]

Disagree, again respectfully. It is in the Koran for them to kill infidels, and I've seen plenty of evidence to back up the fact that a whole lot of them take that literally. Of course, as with anything, there are exceptions.
The 'infidels' were invaded and slaughtered by Muslims, and the Crusades were the Christians taking their land back (and probably doing some slaughtering in return).
As for the Inquisition, I am going to do more research before I make any comments on it.

Good chatting with you.

[Doug Taylor]

arguereligion.com?

[Pooch]

[ QUOTE ]
Thank you Kellwolf, that was a very nice post to oppose what Pooch said.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey man, you can 'oppose' me if you want to, too. I'm not trying to be antagonistic. I'll listen to anything you say. I just respectfully disagreed with something that was said.

And believe it or not, I AGREE with everything else you said. Pray to whoever you want, whenever you want.


And Doug, I'll check that site out. It's probably 10 times more appropriate for a debate like this one. Thanks.

[jtrain609]

I'll come back to arguepolitics.com when it turns into a real site with actual argumentation and not a bunch of panzy's parading themselves around as conservatives. Until then...

Pooch you don't have a clue what you're talking about. I'm pretty sure you've never read the Qu`ran before, espically in it's original Arabic form which Muslims belive you need to read it in to fully understand the book. Furthermore, you need to have some perspective of the times. I'll just go through your latest post, I guess.

[ QUOTE ]
You don't see Jesus doing any of that in the New Testament.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, you don't; you see Christians today doing that crap. Believe it or not, we prop up a bunch of dictators that like to slaughter Muslims. Fimilar with this little state called Israel? If we didn't prop them up, then they wouldn't exist. Muslims believe that it is Christians slaughtering Muslims in proxy, and I tend to agree with them. Like it or not, Muslims hate America (not Christians) because we've put governments in power that slaughter Muslims (Israel and Iran are prime examples).

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not just focusing on the radicals. Mohammed (along with his army) killed 900 Jews at one time for just being Jewish; that's butchering in my book

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm aware of the situation you're talking about. It was more like Muhammad's army destroyed the Jews they were fighting and it was more humane to kill the people that were left from the battle than to hold them captive. If they had done that, they wouldn't have been able to feed them and they would have died from dehydration. I think being run through is more humane, personally.

[ QUOTE ]
It seems like every terrorist attack (bombs, murders, kidnappings, etc.) in the world in the last 20 years (excluding a couple by the IRA in the UK) have been done by them

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry bro, but I have to defer back to that whole slaughtering Muslims in proxy argument here. We've been putting Muslims in situations where they are going to get owned for over 50 years, and we're paying for it. Like it or not, that's what a lot of people around the world think.

I would recommend that you get some news from someplace other than Fox News and you do a bit of historical research from the Muslims perspective instead of the Christian perspective. I assure you that if you were born in different circumstances in one of these destitute country's that has been under the thumb of the United States for the last 50 years (at the last) you would be quite willing to give your life to the God that you worship if it meant that your people would be bettered. That's what this war is about, but we don't want to hear it. We burried ourselves with our foreign policy, and now we've got some real desperate people angry at us. They're desperate enough that they'll kill themselves in an attempt to take out a few of us to try to stem the treatment that their families have recieved. I hope you'd do the same thing if you were in their position (fight and die for your family).

[kellwolf]

[ QUOTE ]
I am relatively open-minded about Islam (although admittedly less so since 9/11).

[/ QUOTE ]

Not by your statements. It appears that you get your information from slanted sources. Like I said earlier, Islam is at its heart a peaceful, tolerant religion. There are those few that use it in the name of their cause that twist the words in the Koran to whip people into a fighting frenzy. Once again, If 9/11 changed your opinion on Islam, you really need to do more research into the religion. Al Queda is one of the best at taking pieces of the Koran and twisting it to support their political cause. If the attacks of 9/11 reduced your open-mindedness about Islam, then you are lumping ALL Muslims into Al Queda's radical camp. Sorry, dude. Not true. Like I said earlier, might as well say all Christians are hate mongering monsters because they bomb abortion clinics and blow up government buildings in Oklahoma. Only a small percentage of Christians are that radical, and it's the same with Islam.

[ QUOTE ]
You don't see Jesus doing any of that in the New Testament.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, which is why I mentioned the Old Testament. It's still part of the Bible and often quoted by Christians, therefore fair game.

[ QUOTE ]
But overall, we're talking about a few bad apples, not a large part of the religion (Respectfully--and I've read a bunch of your posts, and DO respect your opinion--you're in denial if you think they're teaching tolerance and peace with the West in some mosque in Pakistan or Saudi Arabia or Indonesia). This is a way of life for a LOT of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about Muslims in other parts of Africa, Asia, Europe, and even right here in the US? You're "regionalizing." Guess what religion a lot of those Iraqis that just got elected are? Muslim. They more or less owe their lives to the West. You think their preaching tolerance for Islam in Jerusalem right now, too? Doubt it. One thing about religions is that they tend to not like it when someone else presents a viable opinion other than their own. Radical Islam is a small, yet VERY vocal, part of the largest religion in the world. I wish other Muslims would speak out against them, but they can't since they would probably wake up with their families murdered around them if they lived in the Middle East. Muslims living outside the region condemn radicals actions DAILY. Look outside the Middle East more often, and don't focus on one region's religion. It's like pointing to Utah and saying all followers of God are like Mormons.

[ QUOTE ]
Disagree, again respectfully. It is in the Koran for them to kill infidels, and I've seen plenty of evidence to back up the fact that a whole lot of them take that literally.

[/ QUOTE ]

Show me the quote and tell me who translated it. Define a "whole lot." Are we still a talking the radical minority?

[ QUOTE ]
The 'infidels' were invaded and slaughtered by Muslims, and the Crusades were the Christians taking their land back (and probably doing some slaughtering in return).

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, cause the Christians had land rights in the Middle East and the Ottoman Empire, right? The Catholic church wanted money, power and spoils of war, so they sent in the "blessed armies" to "do God's work." The Crusades were some of the bloodiest wars in history.

[Mr_Creepy]

Ok I'm going to get in trouble again, I can see it ...

I'm with you Pooch. I HAVE read the Koran (and I'm not arrogant enough to try to spell arabic in english with cute little things like Qu'ran) and you will have little success convincing these "tolerance" folks that the "Death of the West" is in fact a legitimate Muslim agenda.

I have sponsored mission trips to Israel and what used to be Palestine. What a hostile environment for Christians!

I'll ask all you truth seekers one question.

1) A muslim in America
2) A Christian in a Muslim nation

Who is more likely to receive "fair and equal" treatment? Who is more likely to be killed for their beliefs?

So enough of this "Christians are Intolerant" rant. People with their eyes open can see otherwise.

The hate of the West is rampant in the Middle East. And before you go blaming it on President Bush, remember that they have hated us for hundreds of years. They hate liberals just as much as conservatives.

Their hate is a cold, professionally indoctrinated, religious hate. How many Westerners are willing to suicide just so they can take down a few Muslims with them? How many Westerners would even think such an agenda as honorable?

Ok go ahead - flame away at this "obvious religious bigot."

[SteveC]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok I'm going to get in trouble again, I can see it ...

I'm with you Pooch. I HAVE read the Koran (and I'm not arrogant enough to try to spell arabic in english with cute little things like Qu'ran) and you will have little success convincing these "tolerance" folks that the "Death of the West" is in fact a legitimate Muslim agenda.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have not read the Koran, nor studied its teachings, so I could not comment (other than ignorantly) on this part of your post. (That surely won't stop me from making ignorant comments elsewhere.... )

[ QUOTE ]
I have sponsored mission trips to Israel and what used to be Palestine. What a hostile environment for Christians!

[/ QUOTE ]

I have traveled in Israel, and have also spent extensive periods in both Egypt and Saudi Arabia (by extensive, I mean durations of months at a tiime). I guess this will have to be a "glass half empty" versus "glass half full" type of disagreement, since I never felt any hostile feelings directed towards me on any of those trips.

Did your mission trips to Israel and Palestine include active attempts to convert people of Muslim (and/or Jewish) faith to Christianity? (Implications unstated, but clearly implied )

[ QUOTE ]
I'll ask all you truth seekers one question....

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you not also a "truth seeker"?

[ QUOTE ]
I'll ask all you truth seekers one question.

1) A muslim in America
2) A Christian in a Muslim nation

Who is more likely to receive "fair and equal" treatment? Who is more likely to be killed for their beliefs?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think (my feeling only, no statistical backing) that the possibility of either event is so low as to be "below the radar". More likely to get killed in an auto accident than be singled out and killed for your religious beliefs in either location. The suicide bombings indemic in Israel are not directed at Christians. The current bombings in Iraq are not directed at our people because of their Christianity (and not all are Christians, of course), but because of the occupation of the country.

[ QUOTE ]
So enough of this "Christians are Intolerant" rant. People with their eyes open can see otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I'd have to (sort of) agree with you on this one. I don't beleive that Christians, as a whole, are any more intolerant than any other group.

[ QUOTE ]
The hate of the West is rampant in the Middle East. And before you go blaming it on President Bush, remember that they have hated us for hundreds of years. They hate liberals just as much as conservatives.

[/ QUOTE ]

My experience in the Middle East leads me to believe otherwise. My time in Egypt and Saudi Arabia were both work related trips, and I spent most of my time with the oridinary working class people of those countries. I don't know if this gives me a different perspective from people that travel in those regions in different capacities, for example with the armed forces, or not. I was generally treated very well by everyone. I cannot be mistaken for Middle Eastern, and I was usually alone (or with at most one or two other westerners) while wandering the cities and seeing the sights during our days off, and I never experienced anything that could be even loosely interpreted as hateful actions or attitudes against me.

Again, I have not studied the Koran or investigated what is being taught in the Mosques, but I just did not see anything during my travels that would lead me to believe (as you say above) "that the "Death of the West" is in fact a legitimate Muslim agenda".

[ QUOTE ]
Their hate is a cold, professionally indoctrinated, religious hate. How many Westerners are willing to suicide just so they can take down a few Muslims with them? How many Westerners would even think such an agenda as honorable?

[/ QUOTE ]
My experiences tell me that this is only evident in, at most, a few radical elements, not in the general population. Again, my sampling was entirely experience based, not scientific study. Interestingly I was in Cairo when Anwar Sadat was assassinated and so got to experience some of the internal turmoil for a few days.

[ QUOTE ]
Ok go ahead - flame away at this "obvious religious bigot."

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you self-label that way? I don't recall anyone else referring to you with those words. (Granted, I have a pretty good case of "selective memory" when I want to.) Sometimes I think you take a martyr stance in these issues.

My bottom line: fanatics of any faith can give the majority of followers a bad name. Intolerance on both sides is the enemy.


<no flames intended, just discussion>

[jtrain609]

Wondered when you were going to poke your head into this one.

It has nothing to do with being a religious bigot. It has everything to do with foreign policy. You can scream and cry like a little baby all you want about how we're not that bad of people, and we mean well. You're right, we're not horrible people and we do mean well. But that dosen't change the fact that hundreds of thousands of Muslims have been slaughtered while we prop up a Jewish state and bicker over the death of one woman in Florida after she has been brain dead for 15 years. Muslims around the world see us are the cause of their plight, and in a lot of situations they are right. In one way or another, we have caused them to be in the situation that they are in today (see Israel and Iran situations mentioned above).

Whether you choose to accept it or not, we have had a hand in Muslims getting killed and the blood is on our hands. Go ahead, complain and try to say that it's not Christians or something, I expect nothing else from you.

It is what it is - Muslims are being slaughtered while we stand by. We'll help the Jews to get into a position where they can slaughter Muslims and we wonder why these folks are so mad at us.

[Pooch]

Mr. Tenney--Very well put. I guess that makes me an 'obvious religious bigot' as well...Oh, well, people believe what they want to believe, and some walk around blindfolded all day and you can't open their eyes.

Mr. Hersheroff--Your claim that "hundreds of thousands of Muslims have been slaughtered while we prop up a Jewish state" is ludicrous. I'm assuming you're talking about Muslim deaths at our hands since Israel's inception in the late 1940's, since that's what you make it sound like. I guess you're just exaggerating for effect. And your Blame-America attitude regarding the woes of predominately Muslim countries and as some kind of justification for their attacks on us is just exasperating, and frankly, laughable. WE are responsible for everything, right? And yeah, I watch FoxNews along with CNN, MSNBC, etc., and maybe you should get your news from somewhere besides Al-Jazeera.

SteveC--I like, and agree with, the bottom line in your post. The problem is that one side is less tolerant than the other.

Kellwolf--"Islam is at its heart a peaceful, tolerant religion." Your words. And maybe that is true with a lot of them. However, it is hard to tell from everything that's going on in right now--just don't see a lot of peace and tolerance. And these frequent, DAILY condemnations from Muslim leaders that you talk about--where are they? I watch the news, read the papers, scan the Internet, etc., more than the average person and I just don't see it. Unlike when some lone Christian kills someone and Christian leaders are all over the place condemning it...and then I could get into numbers of attacks AND of the numbers of attackers...And by the way, McVeigh in Ok City really wasn't an attack against non-Christian-believers, was it? It was an attack against our gov't.
As for your requested link, well here's one (first one I came to on a 'net search) of many...
http://www.wvinter.net/~haught/Koran.html
And I'd define tens of thousands as "a whole lot."
Good chattin' with you...

[jtrain609]

[ QUOTE ]

Oh, well, people believe what they want to believe, and some walk around blindfolded all day and you can't open their eyes.


[/ QUOTE ]

Couldn't have said it better myself

[Mr_Creepy]

[ QUOTE ]
Wondered when you were going to poke your head into this one.

[/ QUOTE ]

I swore I wouldn't do this again

[ QUOTE ]
It has nothing to do with being a religious bigot. It has everything to do with foreign policy. You can scream and cry like a little baby all you want about how we're not that bad of people, and we mean well. You're right, we're not horrible people and we do mean well. But that dosen't change the fact that hundreds of thousands of Muslims have been slaughtered while we prop up a Jewish state and bicker over the death of one woman in Florida after she has been brain dead for 15 years.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually agree with you here. I hope this is not what we are disagreeing on. Still, you must also mention the hundreds of thousand non-Muslims that have been slaughtered in the muslim countries. Of course we very rarely hear about it, because anyone that "tells" has their family slaughtered.

[ QUOTE ]
Muslims around the world see us are the cause of their plight, and in a lot of situations they are right. In one way or another, we have caused them to be in the situation that they are in today (see Israel and Iran situations mentioned above).

[/ QUOTE ]

John you are trying to make a religious ("Holy") war in to a political issue. You may be right. Politics and Religion are certainly bedfellows, after all Religion is interaction between man and God and Politics is interaction between Man and Man.

[ QUOTE ]
Whether you choose to accept it or not, we have had a hand in Muslims getting killed and the blood is on our hands. Go ahead, complain and try to say that it's not Christians or something, I expect nothing else from you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I myself, have never killed a Muslim - but the day is young

However, Muslims recently killed 5000 or so Americans in a suicide attack on a large office complex. Perhaps you were aware of that?

[ QUOTE ]
It is what it is - Muslims are being slaughtered while we stand by. We'll help the Jews to get into a position where they can slaughter Muslims and we wonder why these folks are so mad at us.

[/ QUOTE ]

People die horribly every day. Not just muslims killed by Christians or Jews. "We all have but one destiny, and that is to die."

In spite of my cavalier tone, I am sensitive to and grieve for the lives lost. I wish there was a way to "bury the hatchet" and move on, but look at Ireland for example. Not gonna happen! The spiritual forces involved in the Middle East hatred are huge. Yes I am speaking metaphysically. This is all pre-ordained. Revelation tells us that things are going to get worse (much worse) before they ever get better.

I wish I knew what we could do to alleviate it, but I can tell you one thing. If you think that withdrawing our support of Israel will reduce Western Hatred one iota - well I have a deal for you on the Brooklyn Bridge. No checks please. Cash, and in small bills.

[Mr_Creepy]

[ QUOTE ]
I have not read the Koran, nor studied its teachings, so I could not comment (other than ignorantly) on this part of your post. (That surely won't stop me from making ignorant comments elsewhere.... )

[/ QUOTE ]

I've noticed LOL.

[ QUOTE ]
I have traveled in Israel, and have also spent extensive periods in both Egypt and Saudi Arabia (by extensive, I mean durations of months at a tiime). I guess this will have to be a "glass half empty" versus "glass half full" type of disagreement, since I never felt any hostile feelings directed towards me on any of those trips.

Did your mission trips to Israel and Palestine include active attempts to convert people of Muslim (and/or Jewish) faith to Christianity? (Implications unstated, but clearly implied )

[/ QUOTE ]

No these were mostly "missions of mercy" - providing physical labor and medical assistence. There was of course always the "hidden agenda" of evangelism, but we were under pretty strict orders NOT to reveal that we were Christian Missionaries, because they usually ended up beheaded or worse.

[ QUOTE ]
Are you not also a "truth seeker"?

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope so. I'm as imperfect as the next guy, though. I hope I listen to truth. The problem is recognizing it I guess. What I recognize as truth may be different to you, etc.

[ QUOTE ]
I think (my feeling only, no statistical backing) that the possibility of either event is so low as to be "below the radar". More likely to get killed in an auto accident than be singled out and killed for your religious beliefs in either location. The suicide bombings indemic in Israel are not directed at Christians. The current bombings in Iraq are not directed at our people because of their Christianity (and not all are Christians, of course), but because of the occupation of the country.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read my answer to John H. If you think Christians and other Western people aren't being killed you are sadly mistaken. It is just not being reported. It is the death penalty to be a practicing Christian in many muslim countries, including Saudi Arabia and Syria.

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I'd have to (sort of) agree with you on this one. I don't beleive that Christians, as a whole, are any more intolerant than any other group.

[/ QUOTE ]

True. Also, a lot of people are lumped in to "Christians" that probably should be separate groups. Complicated question.

[ QUOTE ]
My experience in the Middle East leads me to believe otherwise. My time in Egypt and Saudi Arabia were both work related trips, and I spent most of my time with the oridinary working class people of those countries. I don't know if this gives me a different perspective from people that travel in those regions in different capacities, for example with the armed forces, or not. I was generally treated very well by everyone. I cannot be mistaken for Middle Eastern, and I was usually alone (or with at most one or two other westerners) while wandering the cities and seeing the sights during our days off, and I never experienced anything that could be even loosely interpreted as hateful actions or attitudes against me.

Again, I have not studied the Koran or investigated what is being taught in the Mosques, but I just did not see anything during my travels that would lead me to believe (as you say above) "that the "Death of the West" is in fact a legitimate Muslim agenda".

[/ QUOTE ]

What parts of Saudi Arabia? Don't forget that during Desert Storm there was a proclamation from on high to leave the Americans alone - "they are helping us." A good read for this is "It Doesn't Take A Hero" by Norm Schwarzkopf.

[ QUOTE ]
Their hate is a cold, professionally indoctrinated, religious hate. How many Westerners are willing to suicide just so they can take down a few Muslims with them? How many Westerners would even think such an agenda as honorable?

My experiences tell me that this is only evident in, at most, a few radical elements, not in the general population. Again, my sampling was entirely experience based, not scientific study. Interestingly I was in Cairo when Anwar Sadat was assassinated and so got to experience some of the internal turmoil for a few days.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes it's only a small element but they are NOT condemned. In fact they are secretly (and in some cases openly) admired by the rest of the Muslim population. Any radical group like that in America (say the KKK for example) is obviously and rightfully condemned.

[ QUOTE ]
Ok go ahead - flame away at this "obvious religious bigot."

Why do you self-label that way? I don't recall anyone else referring to you with those words. (Granted, I have a pretty good case of "selective memory" when I want to.) Sometimes I think you take a martyr stance in these issues.

[/ QUOTE ]

You haven't been around that long - I guess you weren't here during the Eagle days

[ QUOTE ]
My bottom line: fanatics of any faith can give the majority of followers a bad name. Intolerance on both sides is the enemy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree 100%

[jtrain609]

John you better hope that you're right and that the 12th Imam dosen't come strolling up soon or we're going to be in a world of hurt.

[SteveC]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have not read the Koran, nor studied its teachings, so I could not comment (other than ignorantly) on this part of your post. (That surely won't stop me from making ignorant comments elsewhere.... )

[/ QUOTE ]

I've noticed LOL.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks!


[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Did your mission trips to Israel and Palestine include active attempts to convert people of Muslim (and/or Jewish) faith to Christianity? (Implications unstated, but clearly implied )

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No these were mostly "missions of mercy" - providing physical labor and medical assistence. There was of course always the "hidden agenda" of evangelism, but we were under pretty strict orders NOT to reveal that we were Christian Missionaries, because they usually ended up beheaded or worse.

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Implied implications withdrawn.

I don't believe that I have ever heard of Christian Missionaries being beheaded (or worse) in Israel or Palestine?
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Are you not also a "truth seeker"?

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I hope so. I'm as imperfect as the next guy, though.

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Imperfect as the next guy? I don't know about that. I've only met you once, but I thought you were "above average". [ QUOTE ]
I hope I listen to truth. The problem is recognizing it I guess. What I recognize as truth may be different to you, etc.

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Agree totally. It's good to recognize and acknowledge differences in beliefs in areas often considered "absolutes", eh?

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I think (my feeling only, no statistical backing) that the possibility of either event is so low as to be "below the radar". More likely to get killed in an auto accident than be singled out and killed for your religious beliefs in either location. The suicide bombings endemic in Israel are not directed at Christians. The current bombings in Iraq are not directed at our people because of their Christianity (and not all are Christians, of course), but because of the occupation of the country.

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Read my answer to John H. If you think Christians and other Western people aren't being killed you are sadly mistaken. It is just not being reported.

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I'm sorry, but I find this difficult to believe. Considering the uproar over a mission plane shot down a few years ago in South America, I can't imagine Westerners being killed with any kind of regularity in Muslim countries without massive publicity.
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It is the death penalty to be a practicing Christian in many muslim countries, including Saudi Arabia and Syria.

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Glad I made it out alive.

I'll give you that one, though. It is illegal to be an openly practicing Christian there.
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I guess I'd have to (sort of) agree with you on this one. I don't beleive that Christians, as a whole, are any more intolerant than any other group.

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True. Also, a lot of people are lumped in to "Christians" that probably should be separate groups. Complicated question.

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Could that also be true about Moslems?

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My experience in the Middle East leads me to believe otherwise. My time in Egypt and Saudi Arabia were both work related trips, and I spent most of my time with the oridinary working class people of those countries. I don't know if this gives me a different perspective from people that travel in those regions in different capacities, for example with the armed forces, or not. I was generally treated very well by everyone. I cannot be mistaken for Middle Eastern, and I was usually alone (or with at most one or two other westerners) while wandering the cities and seeing the sights during our days off, and I never experienced anything that could be even loosely interpreted as hateful actions or attitudes against me.

Again, I have not studied the Koran or investigated what is being taught in the Mosques, but I just did not see anything during my travels that would lead me to believe (as you say above) "that the "Death of the West" is in fact a legitimate Muslim agenda".

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What parts of Saudi Arabia? Don't forget that during Desert Storm there was a proclamation from on high to leave the Americans alone - "they are helping us." A good read for this is "It Doesn't Take A Hero" by Norm Schwarzkopf.

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Jeddah area. Yeah, that area is a lot more tolerant of westerners than other locations in Saudi Arabia, even though it is relatively close to Mecca and Medinah. I was there well before the Desert Storm era.

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Their hate is a cold, professionally indoctrinated, religious hate. How many Westerners are willing to suicide just so they can take down a few Muslims with them? How many Westerners would even think such an agenda as honorable?

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My experiences tell me that this is only evident in, at most, a few radical elements, not in the general population. Again, my sampling was entirely experience based, not scientific study. Interestingly I was in Cairo when Anwar Sadat was assassinated and so got to experience some of the internal turmoil for a few days.

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Yes it's only a small element but they are NOT condemned. In fact they are secretly (and in some cases openly) admired by the rest of the Muslim population. Any radical group like that in America (say the KKK for example) is obviously and rightfully condemned.

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All I can do is refer to my travels there and tell you that I did not experience those things. Not necessarily disagreeing with you, just telling you that I met a lot of wonderful people that didn't (apparently) hate me because of who I was and what my personal beliefs were.

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Ok go ahead - flame away at this "obvious religious bigot."

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Why do you self-label that way? I don't recall anyone else referring to you with those words. (Granted, I have a pretty good case of "selective memory" when I want to.) Sometimes I think you take a martyr stance in these issues.

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You haven't been around that long - I guess you weren't here during the Eagle days

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Sure I was, and I suppose he was one who might have used those words. I'm not sure that any of our current posters would, though.

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My bottom line: fanatics of any faith can give the majority of followers a bad name. Intolerance on both sides is the enemy.

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Agree 100%

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[Mr_Creepy]

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John you better hope that you're right and that the 12th Imam dosen't come strolling up soon or we're going to be in a world of hurt.

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Good point!

[Mr_Creepy]

We're getting too deep in quotes to quote you again, so let me exercise my feeble memory.

Recently several hundred Christian missionaries from the New Tribes Mission have been reported as "missing." Topically, the countries these missing missionaries were assigned to include (but are not limited to):

N. Korea (not sure of the muslim connection here)
Phillipines (supposedly a muslim terrorist stronghold)
Sudan
Syria
Saudi Arabia
Tonga
Jordan
Libya
Egypt

It is true that killing missionaries today would probably make the news in most cases, but John H was talking about hundreds of thousands of muslims killed by Israel, and of course he is spanning a length of 5,000+ years to reach that number.

There are other missionary organizations that have lost members to terrorist and/or muslim organizations in the past. You mentioned South America. Again that is a prominently Catholic continent, so nobody would be interested in suppressing that news.

I read an interesting article about an Iraqi christian family a while back on a website somewhere - probably not too accurate - but the atroicites performed on this man's family by Saddam Hussein and his henchmen were deplorable.

John H. will no doubt say this was political and not religious. Can't argue with him there. But where does it start?

[kellwolf]

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What a hostile environment for Christians!

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I live in the South, and I'm not Christian (shocker, huh?) Now, I'm not getting shot at, but if I were actually open about it (especially in the city I live in right now), I would be scorned, looked at like I had the plague and treated differently. Why? Because I don't follow the same god everyone else does and show up on a weekly basis to pretend I'm righteous. Now, you wanna talk tolerance?

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The hate of the West is rampant in the Middle East.

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Once again, the hate of the West in the Middle East (as John H pointed out) is POLITICAL. The radical Islamists are using religion to further their political gains. It's no different than what the church has done for centuries. Kinda like installing a govenment in the Middle East based on geographical information from the Old Testament. I'll say it again, Middle East does NOT = Islam. If you want to continue to focus on one region to represent an entire religion, then keep on being narrow minded. I won't stop ya.

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How many Westerners are willing to suicide just so they can take down a few Muslims with them? How many Westerners would even think such an agenda as honorable?

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Trust me, John. If we had a leader that preached from the Bible and took verses out of context to further his cause, you'd have plenty. Especially, if the people were poor and needed hope and someone to look up to. Look how Hitler spun the German people into a frenzy under those conditions. If our economy tanked, millions of people were out of a job, it wouldn't take much of a push to get religious radicals to bomb Muslims in the name of god.

[kellwolf]

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However, it is hard to tell from everything that's going on in right now--just don't see a lot of peace and tolerance.

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That's cause you only look to the Middle East. Apparently, all Christians can't speak properly, listen to country music a lot, drink heavily and are extreme hypocrites. At least, that's the whay I see when I look at the Christians in my area......

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And by the way, McVeigh in Ok City really wasn't an attack against non-Christian-believers, was it? It was an attack against our gov't.

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Ok. That makes it better, then doesn't it.

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And these frequent, DAILY condemnations from Muslim leaders that you talk