Another interview what if question...

[ppragman]

Here's one I've got, you're 25' off the ground, you've just rotated, and suddenly, the right engine in your rj/turboprop (heavies and big guys excluded here). You don't have the gear up yet. You have the runway infront of you to safely land and the ceiling is 500 Overcast, so you'll have to shoot an approach if you go around. Do you follow the decision speed rule? or do you screw the rule and stick it on the ground.now?


Me, I chop the power and plant the sucker, role out take it back to mx, and bitch. I think continuing around flying vectors and headings etc until you make it back to the final approach course would be way more dangerous than planting the sucker.

[Dugie8]

Negative ghost rider, you are WAAAAAY past V1 at this point, the airplane will fly on one motor. 500 OVC is an easy approach. Even on a 10,000 foot runway if you are already 25' in the air, it is going to take more than the runway you have in front of you to stop the ascent, begin a descent land and bring the airplane to a stop.

[ppragman]

Well considering in the 1900 V1, and Rotate are about 1kt away from each other, I'm not really that far away from v1, however, I dunno about RJs.

[Dugie8]

You didn't say you were rotating, you said you are 25' off the ground, you should be at V2 or at least V2 +10.

[sundog]

sounds like a question to determine if you know the difference between a moneymaker and a training twin.

[Rocketman99]

Once I hit V1 anything that happens is an in flight emergency, barring odd exceptions like non-flyable controllability issues (stuck full trim for example). That being said, the plane flies just fine on one engine. Once you're airborne, SEO approaches are a non-event, even down to mins. All it takes is some patience and time. On the other hand, when you chop and drop and don't get stopped how are you going to explain it and not look like you made a VERY bad decision. I would venture that even if you did get it stopped you'd still have a pretty un-fun carpet dance. Not worth the risk.

[MSUDAWG]

Once the words V1 come out of anyone's mouth in the cockpit, we are going flying. You have a lot more time to figure out the problem, work through it, and not be rushed to "plant it" back on the runway...Plus the sky is a BIG area and you have all the room you need once you declare an emergency..

[ppragman]

I dunno, often times we are really heavy, I'm talkin' prolly over gross because the guys in the hangar throw more on than they should. I'm a little cuirous about how much of my "amazing" climb performance would be gone if I lost it. Especially comming out of Dutch with a full load of crab. Hmm... I'm not sure that the "v1, I'm flying now" method is always the best method.

As for single engine approaches, i definitely wouldn't want to shoot one down to mins if it wasn't an ils or an lpv. I wouldn't feel comfortable trying to dodge mountains barely climbing with one engine. I'm not so sure. Yeah, theoritically it sounds great to get up there, but I dunno.

Anybody got some real emergency v1 failure or something that they can enlightenus with?

[BobDDuck]

No idea about the 1900, but in the RJ it can take more then a 1000 feet horizontal to go from VR to 25 feet vertical. Depending on the weight and the flap setting we are probably doing 140 knots by rotation and 150 by the time the nose is off the ground and probably more by the time the mains lift off. Keep in mind that the trend of speed is increasing too. So lets say we are now at 155 knots and accelerating as well as a 1000 fpm or better vertical speed up and 1000 feet past the point of V1.

Chop the power here, it's still going to take some time for the plane to level and come back down. At that point you are doing almost 260 feet/sec That means you are eating up 1000 feet of runway ever 4 second. Keep in mind too, you are only going to have one reverser if you lost an engine so you are going to be relying on braking only to stop.

I'm thinking even on a 10000 foot runway you are going to go off the end.

Unless the plane won't come off the ground, I think I'm going to keep going after V1.

[newty]

Originally Posted by ppragman

I dunno, often times we are really heavy, I'm talkin' prolly over gross because the guys in the hangar throw more on than they should. I'm a little cuirous about how much of my "amazing" climb performance would be gone if I lost it. Especially comming out of Dutch with a full load of crab. Hmm... I'm not sure that the "v1, I'm flying now" method is always the best method.

As for single engine approaches, i definitely wouldn't want to shoot one down to mins if it wasn't an ils or an lpv. I wouldn't feel comfortable trying to dodge mountains barely climbing with one engine. I'm not so sure. Yeah, theoritically it sounds great to get up there, but I dunno.

Anybody got some real emergency v1 failure or something that they can enlightenus with?

Hey Pragman
Hope AK is treating you well. You are right that on occation things are a little different in AK, don't know if I would ever admit to being over Max Gross on a public forum though. Alaska is just kinda it's own deal. I was asked once in an iterview for a chief instructor job, "How will you bring your experience in Alaska into teaching new students to obey the regs" All this said I still think once I am airborn I'm gonna stay up there and get vectored for the approach. I'm no turbo prop pilot but I'm guessing you ain't gonna be using a whole lotta reverse thrust with one engine inop and I would also bet that your brakes aren't gonna help alot on the ice runway at dutch harbor in the winter

[skydog]

Originally Posted by ppragman

Here's one I've got, you're 25' off the ground, you've just rotated, and suddenly, the right engine in your rj/turboprop (heavies and big guys excluded here). You don't have the gear up yet. You have the runway infront of you to safely land and the ceiling is 500 Overcast, so you'll have to shoot an approach if you go around. Do you follow the decision speed rule? or do you screw the rule and stick it on the ground.now?


Me, I chop the power and plant the sucker, role out take it back to mx, and bitch. I think continuing around flying vectors and headings etc until you make it back to the final approach course would be way more dangerous than planting the sucker.

Interesting question: The first thing I noticed was that, even though you said it was 500 overcast, you did not say you had landing minimums. What is the published DH/MDA? 200? 800? 1000? It makes a difference.

The other thing I thought of was that you said that we had enough distance to land. What does that mean? Is there another 5000 feet in front of you or another 15000? (not likely I suppose, unless you are taking off from Edwards AFB, but still something to think about).

My thought is that I would continue the takeoff, because that is what the non-flying pilot is expecting you to do. You've planned for it, you've briefed it, now do it. Like other's have said, 500 feet is not that big a deal. And also, you are way ahead of the performance chart. Performance is predicated on failure at V1, not 25 feet in the air. At that point you are way ahead of the chart, so performance is not an issue.

I suppose the justification for electing to land could be 91.3, but I don't think I would want to be the one to try it out.

[kfour]

Originally Posted by newty

Hey Pragman
Hope AK is treating you well. You are right that on occation things are a little different in AK, don't know if I would ever admit to being over Max Gross on a public forum though. Alaska is just kinda it's own deal. I was asked once in an iterview for a chief instructor job, "How will you bring your experience in Alaska into teaching new students to obey the regs" All this said I still think once I am airborn I'm gonna stay up there and get vectored for the approach. I'm no turbo prop pilot but I'm guessing you ain't gonna be using a whole lotta reverse thrust with one engine inop and I would also bet that your brakes aren't gonna help alot on the ice runway at dutch harbor in the winter

Isn't there a provision to be able to go over gross weight in AK? I cant remember, but I think I read it on JC once...

[dc3flyer]

Originally Posted by newty

Hey Pragman
don't know if I would ever admit to being over Max Gross on a public forum though.

I think what he MEANT to say was the guys that load it say it weighs 1000 pounds, but the plane flies like it is 1500 pounds.... or 3000.

[ppragman]

Originally Posted by dc3flyer

I think what he MEANT to say was the guys that load it say it weighs 1000 pounds, but the plane flies like it is 1500 pounds.... or 3000.

That's what I mean, there's no real way to know. However, considering what that other guy said about the RJ, it would be fool hearty to throw that back on the ground. I still don't about the 1900 though, I'll ask some of the capitans.

[ppragman]

No real provisions for overgross in AK, its in the FARs but its such a pain in the ass to do it that its not work it.

[WalterSobchak]

Originally Posted by ppragman

Here's one I've got, you're 25' off the ground, you've just rotated, and suddenly, the right engine in your rj/turboprop (heavies and big guys excluded here). You don't have the gear up yet. You have the runway infront of you to safely land and the ceiling is 500 Overcast, so you'll have to shoot an approach if you go around. Do you follow the decision speed rule? or do you screw the rule and stick it on the ground.now?


Me, I chop the power and plant the sucker, role out take it back to mx, and bitch. I think continuing around flying vectors and headings etc until you make it back to the final approach course would be way more dangerous than planting the sucker.

"Surely you can't be serious?"

How did you pass an check ride? The whole point of v speeds is to prevent actions like that. You chop the power, you will be off the end I guarantee it! You will have positive performance per part 25 certification. When I flew freight I lost 4 engines in 4 years. 1 was a crankshaft failure shortly after rotation in an Aztec. It climbed out about 400 ft/min(it was light and cool) I made it up to a 1000 agl came back around pumped the gear down and landed safely. Thats not even a transport category airplane. If I would have done something dumb like chop the power it would have went off the end and god knows how that would turn out. I hope you are just inexperienced and your company doesn't teach things like that.

[Pistolpak1]

I agree that a chop and drop could have catastrophic consequences. Probably bringing it around to land would be the safest.

[newty]

Originally Posted by WalterSobchak

"Surely you can't be serious?"

How did you pass an check ride? I hope you are just inexperienced and your company doesn't teach things like that.

Wow thats some really um "constructive" critisism there.

[launchpad]

v1 is calculated to assure that you have enough runway to stop based on the current conditions. If you're above v1 and still on the ground, you're going off the end of the runway. If you're above v1 and in the air, you better not try to get it on the ground because you'll end up off the runway Plus a couple thousand feet.......besides, if you're flying a transport catagory anything, you've practiced v1 cuts in the sim till you're blue....it should be a non-event......

me: keep going...i know for a fact the plane will fly, and I know how to do an ILS with 500 foot overcast. I've personally never practiced losing an engine after v1 and aborting (or returning to earth), so I'm not going to try it, especially with passengers on the plane....

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by launchpad

v1 is calculated to assure that you have enough runway to stop based on the current conditions. If you're above v1 and still on the ground, you're going off the end of the runway

Assuming balanced field length, I think.

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by ppragman

Here's one I've got, you're 25' off the ground, you've just rotated, and suddenly, the right engine in your rj/turboprop (heavies and big guys excluded here). You don't have the gear up yet. You have the runway infront of you to safely land and the ceiling is 500 Overcast, so you'll have to shoot an approach if you go around. Do you follow the decision speed rule? or do you screw the rule and stick it on the ground.now?

Continue climbing, work the procedure, return for landing.

Me, I chop the power and plant the sucker, role out take it back to mx, and bitch. I think continuing around flying vectors and headings etc until you make it back to the final approach course would be way more dangerous than planting the sucker.

Dead. or at best off the end of the runway.

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Assuming balanced field length, I think.

Balanced field, as I understand it, is simply when your accelerate go and accelerate stop distance(s) are the same. ie, it takes 2000 to reach v1, loose and engine, continue the take off and climb to 35 feet OR accelerate to V1 loose an engine and bring the aircraft to a stop. Both distances being the same, voila balanced field.

[ppragman]

Originally Posted by WalterSobchak

"Surely you can't be serious?"

How did you pass an check ride? The whole point of v speeds is to prevent actions like that. You chop the power, you will be off the end I guarantee it! You will have positive performance per part 25 certification. When I flew freight I lost 4 engines in 4 years. 1 was a crankshaft failure shortly after rotation in an Aztec. It climbed out about 400 ft/min(it was light and cool) I made it up to a 1000 agl came back around pumped the gear down and landed safely. Thats not even a transport category airplane. If I would have done something dumb like chop the power it would have went off the end and god knows how that would turn out. I hope you are just inexperienced and your company doesn't teach things like that.

Thanks for being a dick.

[ppragman]

btw I know of two guys who have planted it, and are prolly alive because of it.

[EDUC8-or]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

No idea about the 1900, but in the RJ it can take more then a 1000 feet horizontal to go from VR to 25 feet vertical. Depending on the weight and the flap setting we are probably doing 140 knots by rotation and 150 by the time the nose is off the ground and probably more by the time the mains lift off. Keep in mind that the trend of speed is increasing too. So lets say we are now at 155 knots and accelerating as well as a 1000 fpm or better vertical speed up and 1000 feet past the point of V1.

Chop the power here, it's still going to take some time for the plane to level and come back down. At that point you are doing almost 260 feet/sec That means you are eating up 1000 feet of runway ever 4 second. Keep in mind too, you are only going to have one reverser if you lost an engine so you are going to be relying on braking only to stop.

I'm thinking even on a 10000 foot runway you are going to go off the end.

Unless the plane won't come off the ground, I think I'm going to keep going after V1.

What he said. The only time I would even consider a reject after V1 is a flight control issue like a jammed elevator. Even at V1 + 5 or so while still on the runway I would expect to run off the end. Just like Ethan said above, even on a 10000' runway at 25' you're going off the end and that's a best case scenario. You're probably going off into the trees, traffic, buildings, etc...

500 OVC single engine should be a non-event, we practice down to mins in the sim.

Please tell us about the guys decided to land. What were they flying and what happened? You mentioned the 1900 earlier, I've heard those engines are very reliable.