You're a SouthernJets International 767ER....

[Seggy]

...Commander. You depart MXP for the flight to JFK. On climbout, when you go engage the autopilot, it does not come on, you run the QRH and determine that your autopilot will not be working this flight.

What do you do? Keep in mind...

-RVSM requirements and company SOP for the use of autopilot in RVSM airspace

-A strong headwind

-You are way above max landing weight when you determine that you will have no autopilot

-Weather is iffy at JFK, you might need to shoot a CAT III approach 10 hours from now or it might be at ILS mins, the forecast can go either way

[SteveC]

I foresee an overnight in Bergamo or Lake Garda.

[Seggy]

Originally Posted by SteveC

I foresee an overnight in Bergamo or Lake Garda.

That is what I would want BUT consider this..

Let me preface this by saying I have NO idea about the weights in relation to the 767ER, but say that you take off at MAX to weight. How long will it take for you to burn enough fuel to land under MAX landing weight. Would you want to dump fuel? Would you want to do circles over Europe to burn the fuel? Or would you continue and see if MX can figure something out?

[jtrain609]

Well, I sure as heck wouldn't want to hand fly a 767ER at 280 all the way across the pond, not even knowing if I could land or not.

It's not another famous turboprop operator without a union up in the northeast and you probably are not expected to hand fly across the pond; burn (or dump) the gas and land it back where you were.

[Seggy]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

It's not another famous turboprop operator without a union up in the northeast and you probably are not expected to hand fly across the pond; burn (or dump) the gas and land it back where you were.

Something in this paragraph will change. Will it be the hand flying part or the union part?

[DE727UPS]

I'd ask the company what they want me to do. The 767 hand flys really nice and it's legal to fly without an autopilot, so I wouldn't turn around just for that. If I had good weather at several places within my fuel reserves, and the company wanted me to press on (which they probably would), I'd press on. Being over landing weight iat the moment isn't a problem, you could land overweight or dump. As far as RSVM, I'd get the company to send me a new burn for whatever altitude I could work out with ATC.

The 767 has three independent autopilots, by the way.

[zmiller4]

On this general topic, here's another hypothetical:

You're scheduled for a night flight into one of the more challenging mountain airports in the west that's famous for its windshear. Weather at this airport is reporting crosswinds gusting to 30kts, with only a back course loc approach available. Visibility is both forecast and reported to be at mins for the BC LOC. The crew bringing the plane in has called MX out to defer the autopilot and both flight directors, meaning raw data, hand flown, with no wind shear guidance. What would you do?

[PeanuckleCRJ]

1. Have the FO fly the plane. Always have no doubt on who is flying the aircraft and make sure someone is heads up the whole time.
2. Checklist and work the problem with the other FO (remember there are 2 on this leg). Put MX and dispatch into the loop and figure out the optimum solution.
3. More than likely dump and simply return to MXB if the problem cannot be fixed in the air. Remember: keep it simple. There is no real reason to land overweight in this situation, either.


A malfunctioning autopilot is not all that likely to cause a situation like this, but this can work for any mechanical issue.

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Originally Posted by zmiller4

On this general topic, here's another hypothetical:

You're scheduled for a night flight into one of the more challenging mountain airports in the west that's famous for its windshear. Weather at this airport is reporting crosswinds gusting to 30kts, with only a back course loc approach available. Visibility is both forecast and reported to be at mins for the BC LOC. The crew bringing the plane in has called MX out to defer the autopilot and both flight directors, meaning raw data, hand flown, with no wind shear guidance. What would you do?

That would not be deferrable- If the AP is deferred, you have to have 2 working flight directors.

If they tried to get you to ferry the thing- refuse it. It's unsafe and a bad idea. Are you willing to bet your certificate and life on someone's judgement who is sitting in a desk hundreds of miles away from the situation?

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by zmiller4

On this general topic, here's another hypothetical:

You're scheduled for a night flight into one of the more challenging mountain airports in the west that's famous for its windshear. Weather at this airport is reporting crosswinds gusting to 30kts, with only a back course loc approach available. Visibility is both forecast and reported to be at mins for the BC LOC. The crew bringing the plane in has called MX out to defer the autopilot and both flight directors, meaning raw data, hand flown, with no wind shear guidance. What would you do?

I don't see the problem, that's a normal day.

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

Well, I sure as heck wouldn't want to hand fly a 767ER at 280 all the way across the pond, not even knowing if I could land or not.

It's has been done though!

[zmiller4]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

I don't see the problem, that's a normal day.

Come on, I knew you would post something like that, but I didn't think it would take you that long! Slacker!

Seriously, though, there's some major differences between flying a Navajo, at 90kts, with no passengers, that you're trained to fly on steam gauges, and flying a plane at 150kts on a non-precision approach with lots of step downs with an instrument configuration that is abnormal for every day operations.

[OldTownPilot]

Mark, I know whare you got that idea from.

There is nothing wrong with flying a 767 from Italy to NYC with no autopilot.

Its a 9.5 hour flight and there is three of you. Rotate the duties the entire way back. Each person will hand fly for 3 hours.

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by OldTownPilot

Mark, I know whare you got that idea from.

There is nothing wrong with flying a 767 from Italy to NYC with no autopilot.

Its a 9.5 hour flight and there is three of you. Rotate the duties the entire way back. Each person will hand fly for 3 hours.

Having never flown a 767 I'll ask this question.

Couldn't you in this situation just trim the plane and keep a constant speed so that your hands wouldn't have to be on the yoke for three hours if it is level flight with no altitute or heading changes?

[staplegun]

Originally Posted by Maximillian_Jenius

Having never flown a 767 I'll ask this question.

Couldn't you in this situation just trim the plane and keep a constant speed so that your hands wouldn't have to be on the yoke for three hours if it is level flight with no altitute or heading changes?

Max-

It's stable, but not that stable! I hand fly it up to altitude and from top-of descent to landing all the time but 8 + hours in cruise would be torture...

Kevin

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Originally Posted by staplegun

Max-

It's stable, but not that stable! I hand fly it up to altitude and from top-of descent to landing all the time but 8 + hours in cruise would be torture...

Kevin

Thanks Staple, didn't know that! Thanks for continuing to be an asset on JC!

[KLB]

Originally Posted by zmiller4

Seriously, though, there's some major differences between flying a Navajo, at 90kts, with no passengers, that you're trained to fly on steam gauges, and flying a plane at 150kts on a non-precision approach with lots of step downs with an instrument configuration that is abnormal for every day operations.

Approach speeds are a 120 to 125 according to our SOP! And I've been known to out run RJ's and 737's on approach a time or two. Man us chieftan/navajo drivers gets know respect.

[DE727UPS]

"but 8 + hours in cruise would be torture..."

I agree. That's why I'd want to spread it around the crew. At the same time, torture has never been a reason to ground an airplane. We get tortured all the time. It's in the contract, even....hehe....

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by zmiller4

Come on, I knew you would post something like that, but I didn't think it would take you that long! Slacker!

Seriously, though, there's some major differences between flying a Navajo, at 90kts, with no passengers, that you're trained to fly on steam gauges, and flying a plane at 150kts on a non-precision approach with lots of step downs with an instrument configuration that is abnormal for every day operations.

Oh we're much faster than that, boss. We're 120 until about decision height on an ILS, and we'll do 180 in the terminal environment until maybe 3-5 miles from the marker

And I don't care if I have people or boxes behind me - a CFIT accident has the same result on the pointy end where the office is at.

[Seggy]

I do have to give credit to OldTownPilot who told me that this did happen. Thought it would make for a good post.

OldTownPilot = THE MAN










Don, yeah figured that three autopilots one would work, but who knows what gremlins the plane might have.

[TonyC]

Coordinate with dispatch a new destination and new alternate(s) based on fuel burn below RVSM airspace. Coordinate with ATC for a block altitude, so you don't have to sweat ATP standards on the altitude. Take turns hand flying the jet.


Invite the Flight Attendants to take a turn at level flight. Why not take advantage of the opportunity to break up the monotony of hours and hours of handflying straight and level, right? Could be entertaining.








.

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by TonyC

Invite the Flight Attendants to take a turn at level flight. Why not take advantage of the opportunity to break up the monotony of hours and hours of handflying straight and level, right? Could be entertaining.

She might do a passable job!

True story:

A flight attendant asks a pilot, "How long was training for ya'll?"

"About eight weeks"

"So three more weeks of training and I could have been a pilot?"

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

"So three more weeks of training and I could have been a pilot?"

So did a pilot offer to "train" her??

[DE727UPS]

"Invite the Flight Attendants to take a turn at level flight"

Heck, if you're gonna go there. It's not any less illegal to ask the 13 year old WOW champ in the back to play the video game in the cockpit. I'm sure he could do it quite well.

[mikecweb]

Originally Posted by zmiller4

On this general topic, here's another hypothetical:

You're scheduled for a night flight into one of the more challenging mountain airports in the west that's famous for its windshear. Weather at this airport is reporting crosswinds gusting to 30kts, with only a back course loc approach available. Visibility is both forecast and reported to be at mins for the BC LOC. The crew bringing the plane in has called MX out to defer the autopilot and both flight directors, meaning raw data, hand flown, with no wind shear guidance. What would you do?

Whats windshear guidance...