Uncontrolled Field with no ASOS

[BobDDuck]

You are going into an uncontrolled airport with one east-west runway with an ILS to the east runway. There is an ASOS on the field but it is stating OTS. A front blew through about 2 hours prior bringing heavy rain and wind. The weather on your release is 1 hour old and stating 1800 OVC with calm winds.The approach controller gives you the weather at an airport 40 miles to the east as 260@12G19 700 OVC. Nobody answers on local traffic when you call up and the person manning the radio in ops has no idea how to look out the window and give a field report. Circle to land is authorized only with 1000 foot ceilings.

You are decending through 8000 down to 3000 "vectors for the ILS approach". What do you do?

[JEP]

This may be to simple of an answer, but I would think you shoot the approach and if you get to 1000 and don't have the required visual references, you can do one of two things:

1. go missed and hold for a short time if the crew thinks the wx may clear
2. if that doesn't work and the wx does not clear, I would think it may be time to divert.
3. or one last thing.....since the wx you have is slightly outdated, you could maybe go below the 1000 and think about landing with a tailwind if the wind has changed enough from what was reported and your equipment allows it......

[desertdog71]

You say a front passed 2 hours ago and brought heavy rain and wind, but your 1 hour old weather is stating Calm and 1800 OVC. The weather report 40 miles east of the location has 700 ovc, but weather tends to clear after passage of a front. (Assuming cold front and west to east movement)

I would say determine your ground speed using DME or whatever to determine the approx winds, and make a decision while shooting the ILS. Once you have determined approx wind conditions either land. Circle to land if ceiling is above 1000 ft. If neither is favorable go missed and hold or divert as needed.

I am totally guessing at this one though. With my limited experience that would be the process I would go through. It will be interesting to hear some other thoughts.

[Flysher]

Well I dunno about other 135 ops or 121 ops but with ours we couldnt even continue to the airport since the weather reporting is OTS. The only way we could go in would be to self determine that the weather is VFR, cancel IFR, and procede in that way.

[WAFlyBoy]

Although my knowledge of air carrier ops is VERY limited, and my experience is ZERO, my first thought was that you wouldn't even be able to (legally) fly this approach with an OTS ASOS. Then again, I might need to review my 121/135 stuff....

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by WAFlyBoy

Although my knowledge of air carrier ops is VERY limited, and my experience is ZERO, my first thought was that you wouldn't even be able to (legally) fly this approach with an OTS ASOS. Then again, I might need to review my 121/135 stuff....

Bingo

[BobDDuck]

Just to throw some fuel on the fire...

There was an approved weather observer based on the field that provided weather for the release. The time of the weather on the release was less then 1 hour old upon our scheduled arrival time.

[mikecweb]

Depends on your op specs. Even if you had a report for your release. Our's doesn't allow us to shoot an approach without weather above minimums. If you don't know the weather how do you know if its above minimums.

[EDUC8-or]

I think that ASOS has been in and out for a week or so.

[jtrain609]

Yup, if you don't have weather reporting you're going to have to go in VFR, and that means a bunch of other crap for us.

Now, there are some airports that get approved to use another airport's weather, but those have to be listed in the ops specs. I.E. You can use LAX weather for Hawthorne, or Saginaw for Bay City or something like that because the airports are like 3 miles away from each other.

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by desertdog71

I would say determine your ground speed using DME or whatever to determine the approx winds, and make a decision while shooting the ILS. Once you have determined approx wind conditions either land. Circle to land if ceiling is above 1000 ft. If neither is favorable go missed and hold or divert as needed.

Using the indicated airspeed v. groundspeed to determine the wind velocity wouldnt be a great idea. You may be able to have a shot in the dark as to where they're coming from but you definately would know for certain.

Okay.. carry on.

[desertdog71]

Originally Posted by meritflyer

Using the indicated airspeed v. groundspeed to determine the wind velocity wouldnt be a great idea. You may be able to have a shot in the dark as to where they're coming from but you definately would know for certain.

Okay.. carry on.

This is a what would you do thread, I gave my answer. I have not spent even one second studying Part 135 or Part 121 operations. It appears that there are regulations that govern these sort of scenarios. That being the case, I would abide by the regulations. Once I knock out the next couple checkrides I have, I will start studying the Part 121/135 regs and for the ATP written.

[Van_Hoolio]

Originally Posted by meritflyer

Using the indicated airspeed v. groundspeed to determine the wind velocity wouldnt be a great idea. You may be able to have a shot in the dark as to where they're coming from but you definately would know for certain.

Okay.. carry on.

I've heard controllers ask airliners what the winds aloft are numerous times. I'm guessing many have a computed readout of the winds aloft readily available based on the ground speed, air speed, course & heading. Or else airline pilots are super fast with the E6-B.

[BobDDuck]

The FMS will come up with a wind readout for you. It's really only accurate is straight and level flight though. In this current situation coming down the ILS the numbers aren't going to be very accurate.

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by Van_Hoolio

I've heard controllers ask airliners what the winds aloft are numerous times. I'm guessing many have a computed readout of the winds aloft readily available based on the ground speed, air speed, course & heading. Or else airline pilots are super fast with the E6-B.

Almost all Garmin GPS units will give you a read out for winds if you plug the variables in.

[Looking4Lower]

If you are a 135 operator with FAA Eligible On-Demand Operator/Destination Airport Analysis approval, you can legally shoot the approach with only a current altimeter setting (or an altimeter setting from a facility designated in the approach plate) under 135.225(b). This is provided that your designated alternate has approved weather reporting available.

...just to stir the pot a little. Our company is going to be approved shortly.

[CFIse]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

Just to throw some fuel on the fire...

There was an approved weather observer based on the field that provided weather for the release. The time of the weather on the release was less then 1 hour old upon our scheduled arrival time.

If your Ops Spec says that's OK then it's OK. Most Ops Specs require a current weather report - which can either be the ASOS if it's working, or the "approved weather observer" over the radio. I don't believe they will allow the approved weather observer to make a report and go home and then have the aircraft arrive 45 minutes later.

[meritflyer]

Is there a reference in the AIM that discusses weather reporting requirements for an approach?

[jtrain609]

135.225 rings a bell for some reason, though I couldn't tell you for sure 'cause my FAR/AIM is at work. If 225 doesn't have to do with that, then it has to do with alternate minimums or something like that.

Though it doesn't matter 'cause your ops specs will probably modify it a bit.

[Screaming_Emu]

Originally Posted by meritflyer

Almost all Garmin GPS units will give you a read out for winds if you plug the variables in.

In the Cirrus the 430 talks to the Air Data computer and you get a wind vector with direction and speed right on the PFD. Pretty spiffy.

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Originally Posted by Screaming_Emu

In the Cirrus the 430 talks to the Air Data computer and you get a wind vector with direction and speed right on the PFD. Pretty spiffy.

True it does.....kinda cool.

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by Screaming_Emu

In the Cirrus the 430 talks to the Air Data computer and you get a wind vector with direction and speed right on the PFD. Pretty spiffy.

I am a little more fond of the C182 Turbo with the G1000.

Will you ever see eye to eye with me?

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Originally Posted by meritflyer

I am a little more fond of the C182 Turbo with the G1000.

Will you ever see eye to eye with me?

I won't.....for now.
Cost to Aquire & Operate were my biggest reasons for the SR20 over the 182.

[meritflyer]

Did you purchase a SR20?

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Originally Posted by meritflyer

Did you purchase a SR20?

Actually, I have had it for about 10months, or I should say my employer has....but since I own the business, well, you know.