Uncontrolled Field with no ASOS

[E6BAV8R]

Originally Posted by ComplexHiAv8r

Actually, I have had it for about 10months, or I should say my employer has....but since I own the business, well, you know.

What does your "employer" do with his business?

As per the question, I really have no idea.

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Originally Posted by E6BAV8R

What does your "employer" do with his business?

As per the question, I really have no idea.

We are an Engineering Consulting firm.....we don't make products. We show people how to make their products better! The plane is just a tool to get to/from job sites.

You in OKC or down in Norman?

[TFaudree_ERAU]

2 questions for the OP

-How long is the runway
-What is the aircraft's max tailwind component (if there is one)

[E6BAV8R]

Originally Posted by ComplexHiAv8r

We are an Engineering Consulting firm.....we don't make products. We show people how to make their products better! The plane is just a tool to get to/from job sites.

You in OKC or down in Norman?

Sorry for the late reply. I actually go to school up in Stillwater

[BobDDuck]

Originally Posted by TFaudree_ERAU

2 questions for the OP

-How long is the runway
-What is the aircraft's max tailwind component (if there is one)

It shouldn't really matter but 10 knots is the max tailwind number and the runway was 6000 feet.

[NYer914]

Go to your alternate...go to hotel...go to sleep...

That's how you handle that situation...

[Farva]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

You are going into an uncontrolled airport with one east-west runway with an ILS to the east runway. There is an ASOS on the field but it is stating OTS. A front blew through about 2 hours prior bringing heavy rain and wind. The weather on your release is 1 hour old and stating 1800 OVC with calm winds.The approach controller gives you the weather at an airport 40 miles to the east as 260@12G19 700 OVC. Nobody answers on local traffic when you call up and the person manning the radio in ops has no idea how to look out the window and give a field report. Circle to land is authorized only with 1000 foot ceilings.

You are decending through 8000 down to 3000 "vectors for the ILS approach". What do you do?

I would go missed on the approach and proceed to my alternate and land there since I should have planned for the alternate and still have a reserve of 45 minutes. After landing at the alternate I would call my company's dispatch notifying them of my location and why I diverted to the alternate and if they threaten to fire me, I say ok......and of course call the airport manager and tell him to go and fix the ASOS since its kinda nice to know what the clouds are doing because I am not a freaking mind reader and know how low the clouds really are.


-Farva

[calcapt]

I would approach this from a common sense side. If ASOS is out, you have no weather for the field - period. It doesn't really matter what weather you have for fields nearby or what your release shows, as we all know that weather can differ from one end to the other of the same airport. How can you commence an approach in good conscience if you don't have accurate weather? This is now a non-precision approach as the GS is out of service. The front is obviously affecting the field 40nm to the east with gusty winds but you really don't have any accurate information as to where the front is and where it is heading. Gusty winds out of the west within 40 nm of your landing field and a ILS w/ no GS to an easterly runway is asking for trouble. In my opinion, to shoot an approach with so many unknowns is rolling the dice on the outcome.

Ask ATC for a vector that will take you to an airport that has acceptable weather or at least acceptable weather reporting. You can then relax in the comfort of your hotel room and think about what to have for dinner. Tomorrow will be a better day for sure.

[calcapt]

Regulations allow under some circumstances to shoot this approach as it is non-precision. Some may choose to descent to say 1000' AGL (circling mins) for a looksee. If the field is sighted, a visual approach to a favorable runway could then be accomplished. However, just because you can doesn't mean you should. The heavy rain and gusty winds in the area as well as so many unknowns with the ASOS out would curtail any enthusiasm on my part to land here. Again, I am not saying it can't be done - just that I would likely go elsewhere.

[CFIse]

Originally Posted by calcapt

I would approach this from a common sense side. If ASOS is out, you have no weather for the field - period. It doesn't really matter what weather you have for fields nearby or what your release shows, as we all know that weather can differ from one end to the other of the same airport.

And if that's what your Ops Spec says then you would surely be correct in going somewhere else and heading for the hotel. Some Ops Specs give a method for using other weather reporting locations to determine if you are legal to commence the approach. If you work for one of those operators and you routinely apply your own, more conservative approach, and keep stranding passengers or freight at other airports, I'd suggest you start looking for another employer or, better still, another job, you're not cut out for flying.

[SkyCougar]

Originally Posted by CFIse

And if that's what your Ops Spec says then you would surely be correct in going somewhere else and heading for the hotel. Some Ops Specs give a method for using other weather reporting locations to determine if you are legal to commence the approach. If you work for one of those operators and you routinely apply your own, more conservative approach, and keep stranding passengers or freight at other airports, I'd suggest you start looking for another employer or, better still, another job, you're not cut out for flying.

Say what???...LOL

[SteveC]

<ah...nevermind>

[BajtheJino]

I'm gonna go out a buy an extra large box of Tampons...
Shoot the approach, land, unload your freight, get a clearance and take off. Its as simple as that. Ops specs for most freight companies at least allow for some sort of alternative weather reporting be it from ATC or an approved nearby airport as stated.
I missed the part about the GS being out. Never read that anywhere.
Anyways. There is no reason to be afraid of a little tail wind. 6000ft is a LONG ways.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by BajtheJino

I'm gonna go out a buy an extra large box of Tampons...

[BajtheJino]

Its all in good fun. Don't mean to step on any toes!

Maybe some adult diapers will do-good enough for Astronauts!

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by BajtheJino

Its all in good fun. Don't mean to step on any toes!

That's cool.

Doug just likes to keep a little easier-going atmosphere here in his virtual living room (when compared to some other innanet sites), so I tend to get a little proactive when new folks start using more, ummm, euphemistic phrases that have potential to stir the pot. I've been known to misread people on occasion...

[SkyCougar]

Originally Posted by SteveC

That's cool.

Doug just likes to keep a little easier-going atmosphere here in his virtual living room (when compared to some other innanet sites), so I tend to get a little proactive when new folks start using more, ummm, euphemistic phrases that have potential to stir the pot. I've been known to misread people on occasion...

Thank you Steve! And many of us appreciate the easy-going atmosphere that Doug has created and strives for!

[jump2live]

Originally Posted by CFIse

And if that's what your Ops Spec says then you would surely be correct in going somewhere else and heading for the hotel. Some Ops Specs give a method for using other weather reporting locations to determine if you are legal to commence the approach. If you work for one of those operators and you routinely apply your own, more conservative approach, and keep stranding passengers or freight at other airports, I'd suggest you start looking for another employer or, better still, another job, you're not cut out for flying.

hey hey cmon now. I can assure you calcapt is a fine captain who knows how to take care of his passengers. There aren't many pilots who go the extra mile and take their jobs as seriously as he does. He's always been a great inspiration and a role model. If anyone is cut out for flying it sure is calcapt.

[SkyCougar]

Originally Posted by jump2live

hey hey cmon now. I can assure you calcapt is a fine captain who knows how to take care of his passengers. There aren't many pilots who go the extra mile and take their jobs as seriously as he does. He's always been a great inspiration and a role model. If anyone is cut out for flying it sure is calcapt.

I thought it was a little humorous as well that someone with the handle "CFI" might suggest to my friend, not only a long time CAL capt, but a Navy Top Gun aviator as well, that perhaps he isn't cut out to fly.

[calcapt]

Originally Posted by CFIse

And if that's what your Ops Spec says then you would surely be correct in going somewhere else and heading for the hotel. Some Ops Specs give a method for using other weather reporting locations to determine if you are legal to commence the approach. If you work for one of those operators and you routinely apply your own, more conservative approach, and keep stranding passengers or freight at other airports, I'd suggest you start looking for another employer or, better still, another job, you're not cut out for flying.

I respect your desire to "accomplish the task" for your employer. I also clearly understand that some Ops Specs give guidance and permission to do certain things, while others may be more restrictive. Do not confuse what you are allowed to do with what you should do. I proudly hang a plaque in my shop that says "Just because you can doesn't mean you should." My "conservative approach" that you refer to is nothing more than making a judgement call which is what a captain is paid to do. This thread is made up of hypothetical weather at a non existent airport. There would be obvious considerations given for shooting any actual IFR approach including crew qualifications, equipment capabilities, weather, PIREPS and and a host of other things. Once all this information is gathered, a captain can make a prudent and safe decision as to how the flight will proceed. If the decision is made to proceed to another airport, it doesn't make you any less of a pilot than the young inexperienced stud who delivered his freight by barely making it in. So many talented pilots (and their passengers) have been killed by allowing the pressure of "stranding their passengers or freight" to make the decision for them. If the approach is safe to make, then make it. If the approach is questionable then it is up to each individual pilot to make his or her decision as to how safe they want to be and how close to the edge they feel comfortable operating. It is not a right or wrong answer unless of course there is wreckage and carnage at the end of the runway.

I am in the customer service business and I take very seriously the expectations that my customers place on my employer to deliver them safely to their destinations. I very much want to get them home or where they are going. I promised myself early in my flying career that I would never allow anything, or anyone other than my common sense and judgement to decide when and how I would fly. After 358 carrier landings and 15,000 flight hours I can say that my promise has paid off. And I assure you that I get my passengers to their destinations 99.999 percent of the time in all kinds of weather conditions from mild to scary. The .001 percent that don't make it home with me can rest assured that the decision I made was mine alone, and not what some Ops Specs allowed or how I was influenced by someone who suggested once that I keep stranding passengers because I am not cut out to fly.

Hopefully at the end of the day we can all fall asleep feeling good about our performance and decisons for the day. To me, that is the mark of a great aviator.

[Qgar]

This is EXACTLY why I am more comfortable flying with an experienced Captain than some young stud. "Maturity" rules!

[SkyCougar]

Originally Posted by WildCougar

This is EXACTLY why I am more comfortable flying with an experienced Captain than some young stud. &quot;Maturity&quot; rules!

Not to mention all of those night landings on a carrier that Calcapt has made! I had dinner last Saturday with an Admiral in the Navy who was also a Top Gun instructor at Miramar. After hearing his stories about landing an F-14 in 25 foot seas at night, I would say that Calcapt is more of a "stud" than someone making a stupid decision to get his boxes delivered on time! Not having to prove anything to anyone, and delivering your passengers safely to their destination makes a man a stud!

[calcapt]

Originally Posted by BajtheJino

I missed the part about the GS being out. Never read that anywhere.

You're right, but after all it is a pretend approach at a pretend airport. Thanks for setting me straight. I am sure you are a great pilot.

[BobDDuck]

Originally Posted by BajtheJino

Anyways. There is no reason to be afraid of a little tail wind. 6000ft is a LONG ways.

Wow. Yeah. Maybe not in a light cessna or something, but you try landing an aircraft with a ref speed of 155 on a wet runway with a 15knot tailwind (that's 170knots across the ground). You touch down 1000 feet down (optimistically, although with the tail wind you will float a bit). That leaves you 5000 feet. With water on the runway, even with anti skid, if you put on heavy braking at anything over 100 you are going to be skidding all over the place. So you need to drop 70 knots by reverse thrust (which sucks on this airplane) and the spoilers. That eats up a whole lot of runway. So lets be nice about it and say only 2000 feet. That leaves you 3000 feet to slow from 100 to 0.

Have fun with that.

[jump2live]

Originally Posted by BajtheJino

There is no reason to be afraid of a little tail wind. 6000ft is a LONG ways.

That's a very hazardous attitude to have. Especially when the winds are unknown.