Inoperable Lavatory

[Joe]

Just found this news story and it reminded me of this thread:

Man Relieves Himself in Air-Sickness Bag

[Bumblebee]

Originally Posted by CFIse

Oh come on - now I know you're making it up. Anything as important as an engine fire HAS to be a paper ballot - you can't make critical flight decisions like that on a voice vote...... :-)

two words, "Hanging chads!"

[SkyCougar]

Just thought I'd pop in here to see if anyone fixed the loo yet.

[Baronman]

I like what somebody previously said....

First be honest and tell the people that there is a lavaratory problem, and we're sending maintenance to take a look at it, in the meanwhile it might be a good idea to visit the aiport restroom. If there is a quick fix great, if not and keeping in mind there are alot of people with connections I'd imagine they just want to get there.

The way I see it.
1)Some will be more inconvenienced by missing their connection
2) Others will be more miffed about having an inop lav.

But, option two can be somewhat taken care of with a bottle of water to flush #1 as necessary (for those who can't hold it).

And I'd imagine the majority as well could hold it for a 2.5 hour flight. The few that can't can use the bottle of water trick. Those with the sh#ts (how many could there be?) maybe shouldn't join us.

I'm not really down with the "push in the circuit breaker" routine. The company gives pretty clear guidance about resetting circuit breakers, god forbid anything happened while trying that....

[AmazingPilot]

Originally Posted by FlyChicaga

You have just completed boarding on the aircraft, and are finishing the last minute paperwork before departing on a red-eye flight. All passengers are on board, and the aircraft is full. While finishing initializing the FMS, a passenger comes up to the flight attendant and says that the only lavatory on board is "continuously flushing." You go back to check, and it is in fact running non-stop.

You are at an outstation, and it's five minutes to departure time. The flight will be about two and a half hours takeoff to touchdown, and contract maintenance will take a while to come out and just look at the problem, if they can even fix it. You can MEL the lavatory, but that means no toilet for the whole flight. While you are thinking, the gate agent keeps reminding you that half the aircraft is connecting to an international destination without a second flight for the day.

What do you do?

If you contacted company/maintenance then your hands are tied you need to MEL the Lav. If this requires a (M) maintenance procedure you will need to wait for maintenance, if not then the flight crew can MEL and placard the LAV inoperative themselves. This is acceptable on the Saab.

The alternate option is that you don't call company and depart, while keeping in mind that the toilet all of a sudden broke enroute.
If all that is happening is that the toilet is continuously flushing you can always pull/reset the breaker for the LAV see if that fixes it, but either way it should create an unsafe inflight situation.

Main point here is once you contact maintenance, the issue needs to be addressed. Otherwise you leave yourself open.

[Denny]

All depends on the airplane. Some a/c cannot be dispatched with an inoperable lav. Looks like the initial question had to do with a smaller plane. The a/c MEL will guide you on how to proceed. On my plane I can go with one lav but not the front lav inop depending on length of flight. I would not go with all lavs inop under any circumstance. As for cycling circuit breakers that is a very dangerous thing to do.

D

[averyrm]

Why is cycling a breaker very dangerous?

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Originally Posted by averyrm

Why is cycling a breaker very dangerous?

It tripped or a reason, most likely too much current going thru it. When resetting you could possibly hold it on when it trys to trip again, allowing the current downstream to what ever it was wired to, and a big bang taking place.

There is a video somewhere on an electrical panel doing this and it gets blown off the wall. I think it was a UL video.

[averyrm]

I'm talking about pulling the breaker then pushing it back in, not holding it in after it blew. Hence, "cycling". The only negative for this I can think of is prematurely wearing the breaker out.

[PhilosopherPilot]

Originally Posted by averyrm

I'm talking about pulling the breaker then pushing it back in, not holding it in after it blew. Hence, "cycling". The only negative for this I can think of is prematurely wearing the breaker out.

99% of the time there is no problem with it. One potential problem is that CB panels are always hard to reach in flight, and if you pull 2C9 instead of 2C8 accidentally, that may be a problem. The lav circuit breaker may be next to the "wings fall off" breaker...you never know.

I know that I personally do not have enough in-depth knowledge of the airplane circuitry to know if pulling one (seemingly innocuous) breaker is going to cause a larger problem. On the ground I have no problem with pulling a breaker or two, especially if it solves a "known problem." In flight, I get a little nervous when captains start pulling things.

G

[cfii2007]

Call Chuck Norris....or better yet...McGyver.

[jtrain609]

Funny that Mr.Norris-dude brought this one back up, because we were dealing with this a few days ago.

We were getting worked down to Houston last week. We went from Newark to Cincy, and then Cincy to Houston, all with a busted lav. The Newark to Cincy leg wasn't a big deal, but were concerned about the Cincy to Houston leg, which was blocked at a little over two and a half hours.

We called MX, tried to get it fixed (they had the part "on order") and they told us to go anyway.

The captain said very simply in his departure briefing that if we had to divert because somebody had to use the bathroom we were going to be doing it no questions asked, no matter what the company said. We told dispatch this one through our ACARS and they said they'd help out if we needed to do just that.

In the end, no problems, but we gave the folks a good one hour warning before the flight. Not exactly the same situation, but we pulled it off. Personally, I thought it was way too long of a flight to be doing without a lav. I almost can't go that long sometimes, and in fact had to use the lav on a 45 minute flight the other day (I neglected to remember that tea runs right through me, so of course I chugged a large chai latte from Starbucks right before our leg).

[SoCalAprch]

Originally Posted by H46Bubba

Sure leave it for CS or mx to deal with. I'd hand you some gloves and a baggy and say here you go captain!

Hell if you paid me a fraction of the costs of diverting Id be there with baggy in hand cleaning the crap shredder with a big smile on my face.

Tell the PAX that the LAV is broken and not to use it unless it is an absolute emergency. Put a few bottles in there and use the sink to fill them up to rinse it out, if someone takes a dump who cares, your saving the company lots of cash and you are making people happy that they made their international connections. If Im trying to cross the pond on a vacation and my ERJ from IND to JFK has a turd in it I could care less. But if my flight got canceled and I missed my connection because the LAV was inop I would be pissed. Just my two cents... But different strokes for different folks. And I know on the ERJ if you have this happen you have to pull the CB because the motor can catch on fire if it runs constantly for too long. But if you put it back in for a couple seconds when it didn't pop itself I really don't see a problem with it.
Who does #2 work for!

[jtrain609]

Dunno about your deferal process, but with ours we usually have to lock the lav up and the folks are not allowed in there.

[Micaoct]

I just wanted to pop in here and mention that did actually happened to me 2 days ago. Everyone boarded and we were all ready to go. 20 minutes passed and we still didn't push back after about 40 minutes the Captain got on the PA and said that the Lav is broken so we are going to wait for maintenance to come fix it.

Estimated time was said to be about 15 minutes. 40 minutes later the captain came back and said that they were still working on it and it should be another 25 minutes. Meanwhile one of the flight attendants came and said that no one can de-board and we have to wait in the plane, right after that a ticket agent came and talked about connecting flights, as there were quite a few people which had to make a connection which was delayed for the people who had to make the connection.

After about 1.5 hours sitting on the ramp we finally were told that we had another 757 waiting at a different gate and they had everyone deboard and move to the other plane. As we were getting off a different crew were preparing to get on the plane to take it to Seattle, after the lav was fixed. So we had a 2 hours delay.

Oh this was from Minneapolis to Portland. Oh and there was multiple lavs working at the time, only one was actually broken (from what I could tell). People were going to the other lav constantly.

[Gumps]

So it looks like this thread is winding down...

The first thought I had was that, "If I could make 2.5hrs. no problem, so could every one else." Call ahead and have Mx waiting at the next stop.-Done.

But that is not the question is it? The question I see not asked is, "How do Captains make decisions?" Do they worry about delays and money cost to the company? Connections missed? Do they try to fix the jon themselves? Do they defer the dilemma to the passengers and Flight attendants?

I think not not to all of the above. They've gotta do what's right. Say all but one passenger on the jet 'could' make the leg without leaving their seat, and "our collective grandmother" was the one who couldn't. Do we tell her,
"Since you're the only person who might need the can and nobody else wants to be late, you need to decide if you want to fly on the plane without the jon or stay here."

Of course not. It's not the easy thing to do but I think a Captain has to keep the welfare of all on board primary. It helps to think of all passengers as one person, having a single set of needs. Therefore if the person in seat 15b needs the jon to be functioning, they all do. Having the backbone to make that call is what being a Captain is about.

"Merry Christmas Clark, ...chitter's full!"- Cousin Eddy

[fadec]

Originally Posted by Micaoct

I just wanted to pop in here and mention that did actually happened to me 2 days ago. Everyone boarded and we were all ready to go. 20 minutes passed and we still didn't push back after about 40 minutes the Captain got on the PA and said that the Lav is broken so we are going to wait for maintenance to come fix it.

Estimated time was said to be about 15 minutes. 40 minutes later the captain came back and said that they were still working on it and it should be another 25 minutes. Meanwhile one of the flight attendants came and said that no one can de-board and we have to wait in the plane, right after that a ticket agent came and talked about connecting flights, as there were quite a few people which had to make a connection which was delayed for the people who had to make the connection.

After about 1.5 hours sitting on the ramp we finally were told that we had another 757 waiting at a different gate and they had everyone deboard and move to the other plane. As we were getting off a different crew were preparing to get on the plane to take it to Seattle, after the lav was fixed. So we had a 2 hours delay.

Oh this was from Minneapolis to Portland. Oh and there was multiple lavs working at the time, only one was actually broken (from what I could tell). People were going to the other lav constantly.

From a maintenance perspective as why they swapped equipment even though the other lavs where functional:

The one lav was probably already Inop and deferred per the a/c MEL (Minimum Equip List) or MCO as my company calls it. I'm going to guess that this MEL was about to expire or would expire while the aircraft was in a non-maintenance station.

Happens all time especially since 9/11. Airline management rule #1. The first way to cut costs is to cut maintenance.

I'll also guess if maintenance had the parts they probably could of had the issue fixed in 30 minutes. Unless it was a vacuum system and someone flushed a diaper, but most 757 are blue juicers unless its a fairly new a/c. Anyways, diaper in a vacuum waste system is about as bad as flushing quick-crete cement.

Airline management rule #2. Second way to cut costs is to not stock parts. Then when an aircraft is grounded borrow the required part from another company at hundreds of $$$ a day. Then when you get your own part, change it again and send the borrowed part back. Double the labor but it doesn't matter.


The enemies of a mechanic....Blue Juice, Skydrol and Management.

[OldTownPilot]

From my perspective, Blue juice, not so bad, Its that greenish-brown juice that I worry about.

As for the crapper, its working, just working too much. My thing to consider, does the "lav CB" also shut off the lights. You definitely don't want to be doing your business in the dark, and some people may not want to sit on swirling blue juice.

[Denny]

Wow! Haven't been here in months and months and this thread is still at the top. Good responses. But some are missing the point. The point isn't about the people (although they are an ancillary consideration.) The point is about the rules and your FOM and the FARs. This thread is about a lav but it could be about anything else on the plane.

I've flown civilian and corporate. This wouldn't be an issue. But in the airline world it is an issue because there are so many procedures and followups.

Something is broken. In the airline world you don't generally want to operate with something broken. If you do you are responsible because somewhere down the line someone WILL find out about it and it will come back to you. If the company gets involved it is back for special training. If the FAA gets involved it is an investigatory matter. One of the two will ALWAYS happen. Always. So pilots at an airline generally will not put their livelihood on the line for connecting pax or other such considerations.

Circuit breakers. With the current state of modern planes the electronics business is not what you are in. CBs today are not like they were in the old days. Don't touch them unless specifically directed to do so. You may fix something temporarily but the problems you cause by doing that may very well multiply and as noted above it will get back to you. Why'd you do that? We don't train you to do that.

Lastly if you do call someone about the issue, ops, mx, the station, etc. then there is a written record of that discrepancy. And the FARs do not allow you to have the discretion to just go. Once it is reported it must be addressed. You have no decision to make other than to wait for mx. Hence that 757 driver waiting to have one lav out of 7 looked at. You do NOT have the authority to just say forget it and go.

We are talking about the airline world here not our own private or corporate planes. Someone is always looking over your shoulder. And if you ignore something any number of people from your F/O to your F/As to any knowledgeable pax can and will report it. You just don't need that kind of problem to deal with. The integrity of the plane, however inconsequential it may seem, always trumps the pax schedule. The planes have got to work if this industry is going to work. Today it is a lav. Tomorrow it is something else. Everyday will be something. The decisions are always easy and simple. They are there for you in the FOM, the Airplane Operating Manual and the MEL. They tell you what to do. You don't have much say in the matter at the end of the day if you do your job and want to keep it.