Descend now?

[NJA_Capt]

You are on a cross country flight at FL430 and the last few hours have gone fine. From out of the blue, ATC demands that you descend to FL290, "next sectors request for spacing into Kxxx." But...you are still 800nm from your destination. This is a permanent descent and you will not be allowed to climb back up. In fact, you will be at FL190, 200nm from destination.

Your request for PD (pilot's discretion) are denied.
Your fuel was on profile until the descent, now your burn has doubled.
Diverting for fuel is the LAST option.

[MikeD]

How much below profile can you accept? I'm asking in the sense that we have a planned profile for our flights we take, and also a "continuation fuel", that is, an amount of fuel below that of planned leg fuel that we can be, and still make absolute reserve fuel. If this doesn't work, I'd ask for some form of direct or cut-off to legs off flight-planned route if applicable, otherwise, not much that can be done, IMHO.

[FlyChicaga]

I'd determine the minimum altitude that can be accepted for the fuel requirements, and tell them that is the best we can do.

ATC guides us, and they keep us from trouble; get us where we need to go. But they aren't God. If you do want to meet the Maker though, go ahead and just blindly follow ATC, then run out of gas. I'd say do what will be prudent in keeping yourself the required fuel and safety margin to operate the flight effectively. No need to create a fuel emergency for spacing. "Yo, space someone else!"

[mtsu_av8er]

[ QUOTE ]
You are on a cross country flight at FL430 . . .

[/ QUOTE ]

You're teasing, aren't you?

[JEP]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You are on a cross country flight at FL430 . . .

[/ QUOTE ]

You're teasing, aren't you?

[/ QUOTE ]

It is nice and quiet up there.
(the one time I have been up there (30-40 mins.)

[EatSleepFly]

"Unable."

[NJA_Capt]

[ QUOTE ]
... I'd ask for some form of direct or cut-off to legs off flight-planned route if applicable, otherwise, not much that can be done, IMHO.

[/ QUOTE ]
Had to fall in line for the "event" traffic. Everyone had to be in line. No off routes available. Not very logical to me. You would think the more spaced the better, instead of cramming everyone into the low altitudes. (It was ATL by the way).

We had to slow WAAAAAAAAAAAY down to "make some gas." If you are running in HSC (High Speed Cruise) this is an option. If you are already in LRC (Long Range Cruise) you are in trouble. We once informed ATC that a lower altitude would cause a fuel problem, his response was "not my problem."

[NJA_Capt]

[ QUOTE ]
It is nice and quiet up there.


[/ QUOTE ]
....and they still won't give you direct

[Kingairer]

You mean you were below 370 and not already back at LRC??? I thought with all those RJs up there you guys would have to have her pulled way back to .80 Anyways!

[Theotokos]

These ATC advisors remind me of the flight sim ones...only do what they are programmed to do. Like when I was doing a flight from SLC to Chicago Midway once and I got put in a hold for an hour and was becoming fuel critical....I wanted to be all proper and land only when they said to but when my center tank was about out I said to hell with it. As I was coming in on base they finally cleared me. My engines failed right on the runway at touchdown....sound like these ATCs too need to be slapped. I'd be pretty mad if they are asking me to do somthing like that when it can be risky....I am assuming this situation may put you fuel criticial....if not then do what they say...let your airline pay for the extra fuel, you have nothing to worry about.....a little payback to the CEOs for the way they treat their employees..... they make thousands a year anyway and live in penthouses and pay us comparitively ###### pay to fly them to Aruba and the Bahamas, while paying FAs hardly a penny...let them spend their money.....but I suppose they are better than Wal-Mart...but enough politics. Just do what they say unless it may make you fuel criticial....

[mtsu_av8er]

[ QUOTE ]
These ATC advisors remind me of the flight sim ones...only do what they are programmed to do. Like when I was doing a flight from SLC to Chicago Midway once and I got put in a hold for an hour and was becoming fuel critical....I wanted to be all proper and land only when they said to but when my center tank was about out I said to hell with it. As I was coming in on base they finally cleared me. My engines failed right on the runway at touchdown....sound like these ATCs too need to be slapped. I'd be pretty mad if they are asking me to do somthing like that when it can be risky....I am assuming this situation may put you fuel criticial....if not then do what they say...let your airline pay for the extra fuel, you have nothing to worry about.....a little payback to the CEOs for the way they treat their employees..... they make thousands a year anyway and live in penthouses and pay us comparitively ###### pay to fly them to Aruba and the Bahamas, while paying FAs hardly a penny...let them spend their money.....but I suppose they are better than Wal-Mart...but enough politics. Just do what they say unless it may make you fuel criticial....

[/ QUOTE ]

What the . . .

[FlyChicaga]

[ QUOTE ]
What the . . .

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup.

[Doug Taylor]

Flight Sim is a game.

I wouldn't play a few hours of "Street Fighter II" and suggest that I know anything about martial arts.

[Doug Taylor]

Sounds like someone flew into CVG who was notorious for early descents because of Chicago traffic.

Any chance of a vector or declaring 'operational necessity' to stay above the tropopause?

[applepwnz]

[ QUOTE ]
Flight Sim is a game.

I wouldn't play a few hours of "Street Fighter II" and suggest that I know anything about martial arts.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you mean that all of that Mortal Kombat time doesn't make me a master of Rex Qwon Do?

[kellwolf]

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't play a few hours of "Street Fighter II" and suggest that I know anything about martial arts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait? You mean you can't curl up into a ball and shoot across the room, do backflips and kick people in the chin while flipping 30 feet in the air, throw fireballs and stretch your limbs to unholy lengths in order to punch someone 20 feet away?

[C650CPT]

While we know it is good business to cooperate with ATC, there are times to make them do thier job ... that is, they are there to support you, not you to support them. I would have asked for a deviation, a Pilot's desrection or any other option to maintain a REASONABLE profile. As you stated all efforts were denied so my next course of action would be to request a phone number and the controller's initials and a supervisor's initials as well. I would upon landing followed up with a very frank but professionally enlightning phone conversation. I once got, IMO, an early speed reduction going into Tampa ( go figure ), ATC slowed us from .84 down to .76 ... I acknowledged the speed reduction and told ATC that the boss didn't buy the airplane to go slower ... we all laughed.

Jim

[Screaming_Emu]

[ QUOTE ]

Wait? You mean you can't curl up into a ball and shoot across the room, do backflips and kick people in the chin while flipping 30 feet in the air, throw fireballs and stretch your limbs to unholy lengths in order to punch someone 20 feet away?

[/ QUOTE ]

speak for yourself

[NJA_Capt]

[ QUOTE ]
.... next course of action would be to request a phone number and the controller's initials and a supervisor's initials as well. I would upon landing followed up with a very frank but professionally enlightning phone conversation.

[/ QUOTE ]
I have been known to do that

[ QUOTE ]
ATC slowed us from .84 down to .76

[/ QUOTE ]
Try slowing from .91 to .80
I've always joked about banning airliners above FL390