Doors Part Deux

FlyChicaga · April 23rd, 2005, 10:59

Reference post here: http://jetcareers.com/forums/showfla...t=1#Post279569

Same scenario, with a twist. You are cruising at FL340 enroute to a small city in southwestern Mexico. You get the MASTER WARN with associated triple chime, and see an EICAS message stating that the main cabin door is indicating open. You are in cruise flight, again said above at FL340, .78 mach. You also are filed for Driftdown, meaning you are over high mountainous terrain (has to do with single-engine operation but you have both engines operating).

The MSA for your sector in the TC/DD charts is 15,000 feet MSL.

What do you do?

kellwolf · April 23rd, 2005, 17:21

[ QUOTE ]
What do you do?

[/ QUOTE ]

Shoot the hostage.....

In all seriousness, most of what you said is only half-understood by my pre-ground school brain, so I'm not even gonna take a shot at it.

FlyChicaga · April 23rd, 2005, 18:30

Sorry I was exhausted when I wrote it.

Basically, you get a door warning and are over mountainous terrain. Your MSA is 15,000 feet MSL. You are also filed "driftdown" which basically means should you lose an engine, you can't sustain 34,000 feet. So you "drift down" to a lower altitude. Because of the mountainous features, you must drift down into "valleys" of sorts, you can't just drift down and fly straight because there is a likely possibility you'd hit a mountain.

BobDDuck · April 23rd, 2005, 19:18

From what you said, it's two seperate problems.... As far as I can tell there was no engine warning messages, just the door. So the driftdown doesn't really play a factor (except as it pertains to oxygen altitudes.) Not knowing any of the ERJ systems I would have to say that as long as your pressure vessal isn't showing any leaks (cabin pressure/pressure diff etc) you are not in an emergency situation. This reduces it to an urgent flight situation. I guess you would have to look at MX possibilities at where ever you were going (probably non exsistant in Mexico somewhere) and judge it from there. Where I can put back in your driftdown factor is here. I probably wouldn't drop out of FL320 as long as everything was holding together because *if* I lost an engine it would completely screw up my driftdown scenario by being lower then planned.

Ethan

Mr_Creepy · April 23rd, 2005, 19:48

[ QUOTE ]
Reference post here: http://jetcareers.com/forums/showfla...t=1#Post279569

Same scenario, with a twist. You are cruising at FL340 enroute to a small city in southwestern Mexico. You get the MASTER WARN with associated triple chime, and see an EICAS message stating that the main cabin door is indicating open. You are in cruise flight, again said above at FL340, .78 mach. You also are filed for Driftdown, meaning you are over high mountainous terrain (has to do with single-engine operation but you have both engines operating).

The MSA for your sector in the TC/DD charts is 15,000 feet MSL.

What do you do?

[/ QUOTE ]

Much tougher scenario of course.

Definitely make a PA to keep everyone buckled in and away from said door.

I'd probably go down to FL250 at least, just in case we get a blowout, the pax will have more time to get the masks on.

fender_jag · April 24th, 2005, 12:55

I'll take a stab at it (though I'm not sure I'm right): First off, is cabin pressurization normal and on schedule? If we're rapidly losing pressure, I'd give my FO the radios and flight controls while I reference the EPC for Cabin Alt/Emergency Descent. Since we're filed for driftdown, I'd follow the procedures on the EPC (don O2 masks, seat belt signs ON, etc.), then descend to 15,000'. My concern here would be O2 for the pax, so I'd reference the CFM for pressurization. After that, I'd call ATC and tell them what's happening, call ops, tell our FA what's happening, and fly to the nearest airport (hopefully we're not too far from one).

Doug Taylor · April 24th, 2005, 13:35

Nuh uh buddy! You break it, you fly it!

Alchemy · April 24th, 2005, 17:48

Is this cheating

Fasten seat belt sign..........ON
Takeoff Page on MFD.........CHECK
Check the doors pictorial indication on the MFD.

IF pressurization is normal AND intenral door lock indicators are aligned:

Continue flight monitoring pressurization. Notify maintenance at destination.

IF pressurization is NOT normal OR the door internal lock indicators are not alighted:

Maximum Altitude........10,000 FT. or MEA, WHICHEVER IS HIGHER
Cabin........................REDUCE DIFFERNTIAL TO ZERO AT OR BELOW 10,000 MSL

Land at the nearest suitable airport

Crew Brief............PERFORM
Company...............NOTIFY

FlyChicaga · April 24th, 2005, 22:38

Just something I'd do/consider: If we are filed for driftdown, I'd ensure that any altitude we descend to would allow us to still comply with the driftdown requirements for deviation. I wouldn't want to get put into a position where, should we lose an engine, we are unable to divert properly. If indications were that the door was not secure, I'd immediately deviate to one of the planned driftdown alternates. This way, should we lose an engine, we already would be on our way to a driftdown airport, and wouldn't be exaggerating the situation.

Looking4Lower · April 25th, 2005, 15:53

[ QUOTE ]
. I wouldn't want to get put into a position where, should we lose an engine, we are unable to divert properly. If indications were that the door was not secure, I'd immediately deviate to one of the planned driftdown alternates.

[/ QUOTE ]

That makes sense for another reason. I did a little unscheduled freight flying down into Mexico, and their radar coverage isn't exactly stellar in many areas down there. Comm isn't great in some areas, especially lower, and it's sometimes hard to understand what ATC controllers are saying (at least for me). THEREFORE if you make a diversion plan early and communicate it early, you'll be better off if your pressurization emergency escalates and you have your hands full.

Also, I don't know about the airlines, but if you're 91 or 135, services aren't as plentiful down there at some airports. You would hate to divert to an unexpected airport and be greeted by a jeepful of gun-toting soldiers at some strange airport where there isn't even any MX available.

Air_Dave · April 28th, 2005, 21:55

what do you mean when you refer to cabin pressure being on schedule?

Screaming_Emu · April 29th, 2005, 06:00

[ QUOTE ]
Is this cheating

Fasten seat belt sign..........ON
Takeoff Page on MFD.........CHECK
Check the doors pictorial indication on the MFD.

IF pressurization is normal AND intenral door lock indicators are aligned:

Continue flight monitoring pressurization. Notify maintenance at destination.

IF pressurization is NOT normal OR the door internal lock indicators are not alighted:

Maximum Altitude........10,000 FT. or MEA, WHICHEVER IS HIGHER
Cabin........................REDUCE DIFFERNTIAL TO ZERO AT OR BELOW 10,000 MSL

Land at the nearest suitable airport

Crew Brief............PERFORM
Company...............NOTIFY

[/ QUOTE ]

it most definately is ;-)

fender_jag · April 30th, 2005, 19:24

[ QUOTE ]
what do you mean when you refer to cabin pressure being on schedule?

[/ QUOTE ]

Cabin pressurization has two modes: Automatic and Manual. The "schedule" is based on flight altitude (i.e. FL350 will pressurize the cabin to a specific figure).

Doug, I didn't break nuthin'!

Doug Taylor · April 30th, 2005, 19:58

Ok! I told a captain that one day during the brief. He was saying 'Well, if we've got an irregularity, I'll have you fly it and work the radios while I get into the book and work the abnormal' "Huh? Nah, you break it you fly it!"

It was said in jest, of course.

fender_jag · April 30th, 2005, 20:14

He probably cracked a smile right after you had that "What are you smoking?" look on your face

kellwolf · April 30th, 2005, 23:48

Heh, approach brief with me and shinysideup went like this:

Him: In case of abnormal operations, I'll fly and you work the radios and checklists. It might be the last time I get to fly anyway.
Me: Works for me.

BrettInLJ · May 11th, 2005, 13:31

[ QUOTE ]

Maximum Altitude........10,000 FT. or MEA, WHICHEVER IS HIGHER
Cabin........................REDUCE DIFFERNTIAL TO ZERO AT OR BELOW 10,000 MSL

[/ QUOTE ]

So if you can't safely cruise at or below 10,000 MSL, does that mean you do not reduce differential pressure? Would you wait until you got to an area of terrain where you could get down to that altitude safely? Perhaps going down to 15,000 (step one of the checklist) would reduce the differential pressure enough to mitigate the chances of a blowout, and of course you would make sure the FA is not sitting by that door anymore.

Theotokos · June 1st, 2005, 14:04

Go according to manual, advise ATC, and land when possible. Turn on the fasten seat belt sounds and make an announcment like, "Laides and gentlemen, this is you captain. We have a problem but do not panic. Please stay in your seats. It seems that our cabin door may be ajar and we could lose presure at any time. Please stay in your seats with your seat belts fastened and if the oxygen masks do deploy, adults use yours first so you will be able to help you child. We will be landing when possible. Please do not panic. This will only make the situation worse.

kellwolf · June 1st, 2005, 23:48

First thing people are gonna do if you says "Don't panic?" Panic.

MikeD · June 2nd, 2005, 05:04

[ QUOTE ]
Go according to manual, advise ATC, and land when possible. Turn on the fasten seat belt sounds and make an announcment like, "Laides and gentlemen, this is you captain. We have a problem but do not panic. Please stay in your seats. It seems that our cabin door may be ajar and we could lose presure at any time. Please stay in your seats with your seat belts fastened and if the oxygen masks do deploy, adults use yours first so you will be able to help you child. We will be landing when possible. Please do not panic. This will only make the situation worse.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's too much verbology. Your wasting time making an announcement when you should be working the problem.

jknight8907 · June 2nd, 2005, 08:08

[ QUOTE ]
if the oxygen masks do deploy, adults use yours first so you will be able to help you child......

[/ QUOTE ]

Let the flight attendant(s) make a speech about all that, while YOU fly the plane.

asl · August 12th, 2005, 20:46

Hit the "SEATBELTS ON" button, then the F/A's 'll keep everyone strapped in for ya, follow the procedure, work out divert ASAP to nearest suitable, start descent to 15,000, inform ATC, and then .... if you're not too busy working out landing at "magical mystery tour" divert then tell pax what's going on. Oh and call mainteanance!!

Kingairer · August 13th, 2005, 21:13

[ QUOTE ]
"Laides and gentlemen, this is you captain

[/ QUOTE ] That would probably confuse the hell outta them.

BoilerPilot2007 · September 24th, 2005, 12:43

Never say "dont panic"

April 23rd, 2005, 10:59	#1
FlyChicaga Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 4,750	Doors Part Deux Reference post here: http://jetcareers.com/forums/showfla...t=1#Post279569 Same scenario, with a twist. You are cruising at FL340 enroute to a small city in southwestern Mexico. You get the MASTER WARN with associated triple chime, and see an EICAS message stating that the main cabin door is indicating open. You are in cruise flight, again said above at FL340, .78 mach. You also are filed for Driftdown, meaning you are over high mountainous terrain (has to do with single-engine operation but you have both engines operating). The MSA for your sector in the TC/DD charts is 15,000 feet MSL. What do you do?

April 23rd, 2005, 17:21	#2
kellwolf Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 13,257	Re: Doors Part Deux [ QUOTE ] What do you do? [/ QUOTE ] Shoot the hostage..... In all seriousness, most of what you said is only half-understood by my pre-ground school brain, so I'm not even gonna take a shot at it.

April 23rd, 2005, 18:30	#3
FlyChicaga Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 4,750	Re: Doors Part Deux Sorry I was exhausted when I wrote it. Basically, you get a door warning and are over mountainous terrain. Your MSA is 15,000 feet MSL. You are also filed "driftdown" which basically means should you lose an engine, you can't sustain 34,000 feet. So you "drift down" to a lower altitude. Because of the mountainous features, you must drift down into "valleys" of sorts, you can't just drift down and fly straight because there is a likely possibility you'd hit a mountain.

April 23rd, 2005, 19:18	#4
BobDDuck Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Left Seat Posts: 5,340	Re: Doors Part Deux From what you said, it's two seperate problems.... As far as I can tell there was no engine warning messages, just the door. So the driftdown doesn't really play a factor (except as it pertains to oxygen altitudes.) Not knowing any of the ERJ systems I would have to say that as long as your pressure vessal isn't showing any leaks (cabin pressure/pressure diff etc) you are not in an emergency situation. This reduces it to an urgent flight situation. I guess you would have to look at MX possibilities at where ever you were going (probably non exsistant in Mexico somewhere) and judge it from there. Where I can put back in your driftdown factor is here. I probably wouldn't drop out of FL320 as long as everything was holding together because if I lost an engine it would completely screw up my driftdown scenario by being lower then planned. Ethan

April 23rd, 2005, 19:48	#5
Mr_Creepy Old Skool Join Date: May 2003 Location: In the O-zone Posts: 5,807	Re: Doors Part Deux [ QUOTE ] Reference post here: http://jetcareers.com/forums/showfla...t=1#Post279569 Same scenario, with a twist. You are cruising at FL340 enroute to a small city in southwestern Mexico. You get the MASTER WARN with associated triple chime, and see an EICAS message stating that the main cabin door is indicating open. You are in cruise flight, again said above at FL340, .78 mach. You also are filed for Driftdown, meaning you are over high mountainous terrain (has to do with single-engine operation but you have both engines operating). The MSA for your sector in the TC/DD charts is 15,000 feet MSL. What do you do? [/ QUOTE ] Much tougher scenario of course. Definitely make a PA to keep everyone buckled in and away from said door. I'd probably go down to FL250 at least, just in case we get a blowout, the pax will have more time to get the masks on.

April 24th, 2005, 12:55	#6
fender_jag Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: California Posts: 1,245	Re: Doors Part Deux I'll take a stab at it (though I'm not sure I'm right): First off, is cabin pressurization normal and on schedule? If we're rapidly losing pressure, I'd give my FO the radios and flight controls while I reference the EPC for Cabin Alt/Emergency Descent. Since we're filed for driftdown, I'd follow the procedures on the EPC (don O2 masks, seat belt signs ON, etc.), then descend to 15,000'. My concern here would be O2 for the pax, so I'd reference the CFM for pressurization. After that, I'd call ATC and tell them what's happening, call ops, tell our FA what's happening, and fly to the nearest airport (hopefully we're not too far from one).

April 24th, 2005, 13:35	#7
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 39,830 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Doors Part Deux Nuh uh buddy! You break it, you fly it!

April 24th, 2005, 17:48	#8
Alchemy Old Skool Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Austin, TX, USA Posts: 1,722	Re: Doors Part Deux Is this cheating Fasten seat belt sign..........ON Takeoff Page on MFD.........CHECK Check the doors pictorial indication on the MFD. IF pressurization is normal AND intenral door lock indicators are aligned: Continue flight monitoring pressurization. Notify maintenance at destination. IF pressurization is NOT normal OR the door internal lock indicators are not alighted: Maximum Altitude........10,000 FT. or MEA, WHICHEVER IS HIGHER Cabin........................REDUCE DIFFERNTIAL TO ZERO AT OR BELOW 10,000 MSL Land at the nearest suitable airport Crew Brief............PERFORM Company...............NOTIFY

April 24th, 2005, 22:38	#9
FlyChicaga Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 4,750	Re: Doors Part Deux Just something I'd do/consider: If we are filed for driftdown, I'd ensure that any altitude we descend to would allow us to still comply with the driftdown requirements for deviation. I wouldn't want to get put into a position where, should we lose an engine, we are unable to divert properly. If indications were that the door was not secure, I'd immediately deviate to one of the planned driftdown alternates. This way, should we lose an engine, we already would be on our way to a driftdown airport, and wouldn't be exaggerating the situation.

April 25th, 2005, 15:53	#10
Looking4Lower Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: On your TCAS Posts: 539	Re: Doors Part Deux [ QUOTE ] . I wouldn't want to get put into a position where, should we lose an engine, we are unable to divert properly. If indications were that the door was not secure, I'd immediately deviate to one of the planned driftdown alternates. [/ QUOTE ] That makes sense for another reason. I did a little unscheduled freight flying down into Mexico, and their radar coverage isn't exactly stellar in many areas down there. Comm isn't great in some areas, especially lower, and it's sometimes hard to understand what ATC controllers are saying (at least for me). THEREFORE if you make a diversion plan early and communicate it early, you'll be better off if your pressurization emergency escalates and you have your hands full. Also, I don't know about the airlines, but if you're 91 or 135, services aren't as plentiful down there at some airports. You would hate to divert to an unexpected airport and be greeted by a jeepful of gun-toting soldiers at some strange airport where there isn't even any MX available.

April 28th, 2005, 21:55	#11
Air_Dave Newbie Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NJ Posts: 7	Re: Doors Part Deux what do you mean when you refer to cabin pressure being on schedule?

April 29th, 2005, 06:00	#12
Screaming_Emu Old Skool Join Date: May 2002 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 3,094	Re: Doors Part Deux [ QUOTE ] Is this cheating Fasten seat belt sign..........ON Takeoff Page on MFD.........CHECK Check the doors pictorial indication on the MFD. IF pressurization is normal AND intenral door lock indicators are aligned: Continue flight monitoring pressurization. Notify maintenance at destination. IF pressurization is NOT normal OR the door internal lock indicators are not alighted: Maximum Altitude........10,000 FT. or MEA, WHICHEVER IS HIGHER Cabin........................REDUCE DIFFERNTIAL TO ZERO AT OR BELOW 10,000 MSL Land at the nearest suitable airport Crew Brief............PERFORM Company...............NOTIFY [/ QUOTE ] it most definately is ;-)

April 30th, 2005, 19:24	#13
fender_jag Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: California Posts: 1,245	Re: Doors Part Deux [ QUOTE ] what do you mean when you refer to cabin pressure being on schedule? [/ QUOTE ] Cabin pressurization has two modes: Automatic and Manual. The "schedule" is based on flight altitude (i.e. FL350 will pressurize the cabin to a specific figure). Doug, I didn't break nuthin'!

April 30th, 2005, 19:58	#14
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 39,830 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Doors Part Deux Ok! I told a captain that one day during the brief. He was saying 'Well, if we've got an irregularity, I'll have you fly it and work the radios while I get into the book and work the abnormal' "Huh? Nah, you break it you fly it!" It was said in jest, of course.

April 30th, 2005, 20:14	#15
fender_jag Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: California Posts: 1,245	Re: Doors Part Deux He probably cracked a smile right after you had that "What are you smoking?" look on your face

April 30th, 2005, 23:48	#16
kellwolf Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 13,257	Re: Doors Part Deux Heh, approach brief with me and shinysideup went like this: Him: In case of abnormal operations, I'll fly and you work the radios and checklists. It might be the last time I get to fly anyway. Me: Works for me.

May 11th, 2005, 13:31	#17
BrettInLJ Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Home:SFO Work:MSP Posts: 1,035	Re: Doors Part Deux [ QUOTE ] Maximum Altitude........10,000 FT. or MEA, WHICHEVER IS HIGHER Cabin........................REDUCE DIFFERNTIAL TO ZERO AT OR BELOW 10,000 MSL [/ QUOTE ] So if you can't safely cruise at or below 10,000 MSL, does that mean you do not reduce differential pressure? Would you wait until you got to an area of terrain where you could get down to that altitude safely? Perhaps going down to 15,000 (step one of the checklist) would reduce the differential pressure enough to mitigate the chances of a blowout, and of course you would make sure the FA is not sitting by that door anymore.

June 1st, 2005, 14:04	#18
Theotokos Senior Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: BRY/KLOU/KSDF Posts: 481	Re: Doors Part Deux Go according to manual, advise ATC, and land when possible. Turn on the fasten seat belt sounds and make an announcment like, "Laides and gentlemen, this is you captain. We have a problem but do not panic. Please stay in your seats. It seems that our cabin door may be ajar and we could lose presure at any time. Please stay in your seats with your seat belts fastened and if the oxygen masks do deploy, adults use yours first so you will be able to help you child. We will be landing when possible. Please do not panic. This will only make the situation worse.

June 1st, 2005, 23:48	#19
kellwolf Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 13,257	Re: Doors Part Deux First thing people are gonna do if you says "Don't panic?" Panic.

June 2nd, 2005, 05:04	#20
MikeD Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pinal Airpark Posts: 6,897	Re: Doors Part Deux [ QUOTE ] Go according to manual, advise ATC, and land when possible. Turn on the fasten seat belt sounds and make an announcment like, "Laides and gentlemen, this is you captain. We have a problem but do not panic. Please stay in your seats. It seems that our cabin door may be ajar and we could lose presure at any time. Please stay in your seats with your seat belts fastened and if the oxygen masks do deploy, adults use yours first so you will be able to help you child. We will be landing when possible. Please do not panic. This will only make the situation worse. [/ QUOTE ] That's too much verbology. Your wasting time making an announcement when you should be working the problem.

June 2nd, 2005, 08:08	#21
jknight8907 Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Memphis Posts: 262	Re: Doors Part Deux [ QUOTE ] if the oxygen masks do deploy, adults use yours first so you will be able to help you child...... [/ QUOTE ] Let the flight attendant(s) make a speech about all that, while YOU fly the plane.

August 12th, 2005, 20:46	#22
asl Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Dartford,UK (near London) Posts: 241	Re: Doors Part Deux Hit the "SEATBELTS ON" button, then the F/A's 'll keep everyone strapped in for ya, follow the procedure, work out divert ASAP to nearest suitable, start descent to 15,000, inform ATC, and then .... if you're not too busy working out landing at "magical mystery tour" divert then tell pax what's going on. Oh and call mainteanance!!

August 13th, 2005, 21:13	#23
Kingairer Old Skool Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Nomadic...World Wide Boobie Bungalow Bouncer Posts: 3,166	Re: Doors Part Deux [ QUOTE ] "Laides and gentlemen, this is you captain [/ QUOTE ] That would probably confuse the hell outta them.

September 24th, 2005, 12:43	#24
BoilerPilot2007 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Chicago Posts: 444	Re: Doors Part Deux Never say "dont panic"

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