What to do?

fender_jag · February 20th, 2005, 20:44

I'm not sure if this scenario has been presented:

The visibility is 1 1/2 mile, so you're above takeoff minimums. Everything is fine as you takeoff, pass through acceleration altitude, etc. You're going through your after takeoff flows and checklist (as PNF), and then the FA brings something to your attention: One of the passengers has had a heart attack and needs immediate medical assistance. You let ATC know the situation, but they inform you that vis. is now 1/2 mile and decreasing. Oh, and your alternate is socked in, too. This passenger will die if not treated soon (and there are no doctors on board). What would you do?

kellwolf · February 20th, 2005, 22:28

#1 Declare an emergency
#2 Coordinate with ATC and dispatch to get into the nearest airport that I CAN land at.

I wouldn't attempt the approach since it's not legal under 121 (which I'm assuming we're operating under), and I don't want to risk my life and the lives of the other passengers on a risky approach to mins.

PaulThomas · February 21st, 2005, 02:28

[ QUOTE ]
#1 Declare an emergency
#2 Coordinate with ATC and dispatch to get into the nearest airport that I CAN land at.

I wouldn't attempt the approach since it's not legal under 121 (which I'm assuming we're operating under), and I don't want to risk my life and the lives of the other passengers on a risky approach to mins.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ditto, except for the part on legalities. Who care if you're legal. You declared an emergency and need to get on the ground to save this guy life. If you can do it safely, do it.

FlyChicaga · February 21st, 2005, 04:14

I actually had a situation pretty much exactly like you put it, minus the visibility. The day we had it, it was like 3 miles. But it also was 5:00AM.

We had just taken off when I heard over the PA (SF34), "SIT DOWN! SIT DOWN!" from our FA. I thought "oh boy, this should be interesting" as we were completing our climb checks. The airplane was half-full with high school-aged kids going on some vacation. What it turned out to be was that a nurse has ran up the aisle to help a girl who passed out as we rotated for takeoff.

I was PF for the leg. We had been cleared up to 9000', which was our final cruising altitude since we were unpressurized (MELed). We called departure immediately and leveled off at 5000'. They quickly vectored us for the approach, and we completed all necessary checks and had the equipment roll for us so that the ambulance could meet the aircraft upon arrival.

Now, this was with 3 miles visibility... with 1/2 mile, that might be at minimums for the approach. I'd request an RVR reading if they had it, or just the current visibility.

If the visibility was AT minimums, no question. Shoot the approach and land.

If the visibility was below minimums, now you have a dilemma. I'd probably decide to immediately divert to the nearest equipped airport to help the passenger, which was above minimums. This could be 100 NM away, or 10 NM away. Anything that has on-field fire and rescue equipment.

Why divert? Well at least on the plane I fly, you probably have up to 52 other people to worry about besides yourself and the sick passenger. You cannot put their lives in danger by attempting a foolish approach to a runway which is known to be below minimums.

Declare an emergency, request immediate vectors to the closest suitable airport.

Doug Taylor · February 21st, 2005, 10:57

1/2 mile visibility isn't all that bad. Is the aircraft Cat-II or Cat-III autoland certified? It might be a good time to return to the departure airport. If you were taking off below landing minimums, I can't really figure out why the takeoff alternate is below mins.

But I certainly wouldn't entertain a "below minimums" approach because of a single passenger. Now if we're all about to die, that's a little different, but you really don't want to risk killing 149 (at least on the -88) passenger for one passenger that might have a case of gas (no doctor onboard).

If the weather is all screwed up at your destination, chances are any nearby diversionary airports are too... *IF* you've got charts for the offline (not normally served by your airline) diversionary airport that's at or above minimums.

But that's just one guy's opinion!

fender_jag · February 21st, 2005, 13:49

Good replies, guys. This is an interview question, but it also could happen (however unlikely). Why risk the lives of 150 people to save one when you're teetering on mins?

Doug, good point about CAT II or IIIa, b, or c. I probably could have thrown a "baby captain" in there to really make it a little more challenging.

Doug Taylor · February 21st, 2005, 13:56

Even returning to the airport while it's 'teetering on mins' isn't an unsafe situation. However, if the airport you're returning to is below minimums is what makes it an unsafe situation in my opinion.

fender_jag · February 21st, 2005, 14:08

I agree. In Flychicaga's case, it was dawn, but they had 3 SM visibility. If it's below minimums, don't do anything unsafe that you will end up regretting.

Doug Taylor · February 21st, 2005, 15:35

But the advantage of doing something really stupid is that you don't have to live with the guilt!

FlyChicaga · February 21st, 2005, 15:38

Simple enough though. If it's at or above mins, then you can return. If it's below, you don't.

Yes you have a medical condition, but following the rules is prudent and advised since there are 50-200 people in the back counting on you to do what is right for the group as a whole, not for any individual.

MQAAord · February 21st, 2005, 15:53

Wasn't it Spock that said "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one?"

Doug Taylor · February 21st, 2005, 16:01

Aww! Man, I had to choke back the tears in that scene! I'll admit it!

kellwolf · February 21st, 2005, 16:26

[ QUOTE ]
Wasn't it Spock that said "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one?"

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually it was:

"The needs of the may outweight the needs of the few...<cough cough>.....or the one."

It's all good Doug, I had to choke 'em back too. I guess it's kinda silly now since I'm annoyed at the new Priceline commercials.....

fender_jag · February 21st, 2005, 20:45

[ QUOTE ]
Wasn't it Spock that said "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one?"

[/ QUOTE ]

As long as I'm not that "one"!

Bigey · February 22nd, 2005, 21:17

Haha i know this isnt really an answer to the question, but one time i was listening to SoCal approach. A united flight was passing through. Bout 30 seconds as he contacted him, i heard him declaring an emergency. My eyes lit up!

I hoped it wasnt anything serious, but it ended up a passenger had a heart attack! I've never seen a 757 descend so fast!

Like 70 miles out..it was like at 35,000 and then boom, no more than 40 miles later, he was at 6,000. I know it might not be that crazy for anyone else, but i definately was amazed by the whole situation.

Oh and yeah, the person was fine, after catching up with it from ATC!

February 21st, 2005, 02:28	#3
PaulThomas Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Naples, FL KAPF Posts: 46	Re: What to do? [ QUOTE ] #1 Declare an emergency #2 Coordinate with ATC and dispatch to get into the nearest airport that I CAN land at. I wouldn't attempt the approach since it's not legal under 121 (which I'm assuming we're operating under), and I don't want to risk my life and the lives of the other passengers on a risky approach to mins. [/ QUOTE ] Ditto, except for the part on legalities. Who care if you're legal. You declared an emergency and need to get on the ground to save this guy life. If you can do it safely, do it.

February 21st, 2005, 04:14	#4
FlyChicaga Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 4,757	Re: What to do? I actually had a situation pretty much exactly like you put it, minus the visibility. The day we had it, it was like 3 miles. But it also was 5:00AM. We had just taken off when I heard over the PA (SF34), "SIT DOWN! SIT DOWN!" from our FA. I thought "oh boy, this should be interesting" as we were completing our climb checks. The airplane was half-full with high school-aged kids going on some vacation. What it turned out to be was that a nurse has ran up the aisle to help a girl who passed out as we rotated for takeoff. I was PF for the leg. We had been cleared up to 9000', which was our final cruising altitude since we were unpressurized (MELed). We called departure immediately and leveled off at 5000'. They quickly vectored us for the approach, and we completed all necessary checks and had the equipment roll for us so that the ambulance could meet the aircraft upon arrival. Now, this was with 3 miles visibility... with 1/2 mile, that might be at minimums for the approach. I'd request an RVR reading if they had it, or just the current visibility. If the visibility was AT minimums, no question. Shoot the approach and land. If the visibility was below minimums, now you have a dilemma. I'd probably decide to immediately divert to the nearest equipped airport to help the passenger, which was above minimums. This could be 100 NM away, or 10 NM away. Anything that has on-field fire and rescue equipment. Why divert? Well at least on the plane I fly, you probably have up to 52 other people to worry about besides yourself and the sick passenger. You cannot put their lives in danger by attempting a foolish approach to a runway which is known to be below minimums. Declare an emergency, request immediate vectors to the closest suitable airport.

February 21st, 2005, 10:57	#5
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 39,932 Blog Entries: 1	Re: What to do? 1/2 mile visibility isn't all that bad. Is the aircraft Cat-II or Cat-III autoland certified? It might be a good time to return to the departure airport. If you were taking off below landing minimums, I can't really figure out why the takeoff alternate is below mins. But I certainly wouldn't entertain a "below minimums" approach because of a single passenger. Now if we're all about to die, that's a little different, but you really don't want to risk killing 149 (at least on the -88) passenger for one passenger that might have a case of gas (no doctor onboard). If the weather is all screwed up at your destination, chances are any nearby diversionary airports are too... IF you've got charts for the offline (not normally served by your airline) diversionary airport that's at or above minimums. But that's just one guy's opinion!

February 21st, 2005, 13:49	#6
fender_jag Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: California Posts: 1,245	Re: What to do? Good replies, guys. This is an interview question, but it also could happen (however unlikely). Why risk the lives of 150 people to save one when you're teetering on mins? Doug, good point about CAT II or IIIa, b, or c. I probably could have thrown a "baby captain" in there to really make it a little more challenging.

February 21st, 2005, 13:56	#7
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 39,932 Blog Entries: 1	Re: What to do? Even returning to the airport while it's 'teetering on mins' isn't an unsafe situation. However, if the airport you're returning to is below minimums is what makes it an unsafe situation in my opinion.

February 20th, 2005, 20:44	#1
fender_jag Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: California Posts: 1,245	What to do? I'm not sure if this scenario has been presented: The visibility is 1 1/2 mile, so you're above takeoff minimums. Everything is fine as you takeoff, pass through acceleration altitude, etc. You're going through your after takeoff flows and checklist (as PNF), and then the FA brings something to your attention: One of the passengers has had a heart attack and needs immediate medical assistance. You let ATC know the situation, but they inform you that vis. is now 1/2 mile and decreasing. Oh, and your alternate is socked in, too. This passenger will die if not treated soon (and there are no doctors on board). What would you do?

February 20th, 2005, 22:28	#2
kellwolf Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 13,369	Re: What to do? #1 Declare an emergency #2 Coordinate with ATC and dispatch to get into the nearest airport that I CAN land at. I wouldn't attempt the approach since it's not legal under 121 (which I'm assuming we're operating under), and I don't want to risk my life and the lives of the other passengers on a risky approach to mins.

February 21st, 2005, 14:08	#8
fender_jag Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: California Posts: 1,245	Re: What to do? I agree. In Flychicaga's case, it was dawn, but they had 3 SM visibility. If it's below minimums, don't do anything unsafe that you will end up regretting.

February 21st, 2005, 15:35	#9
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 39,932 Blog Entries: 1	Re: What to do? But the advantage of doing something really stupid is that you don't have to live with the guilt!

February 21st, 2005, 15:38	#10
FlyChicaga Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 4,757	Re: What to do? Simple enough though. If it's at or above mins, then you can return. If it's below, you don't. Yes you have a medical condition, but following the rules is prudent and advised since there are 50-200 people in the back counting on you to do what is right for the group as a whole, not for any individual.

February 21st, 2005, 15:53	#11
MQAAord Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: The Looney Bin Posts: 8,908	Re: What to do? Wasn't it Spock that said "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one?"

February 21st, 2005, 16:01	#12
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 39,932 Blog Entries: 1	Re: What to do? Aww! Man, I had to choke back the tears in that scene! I'll admit it!

February 21st, 2005, 16:26	#13
kellwolf Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 13,369	Re: What to do? [ QUOTE ] Wasn't it Spock that said "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one?" [/ QUOTE ] Actually it was: "The needs of the may outweight the needs of the few...<cough cough>.....or the one." It's all good Doug, I had to choke 'em back too. I guess it's kinda silly now since I'm annoyed at the new Priceline commercials.....

February 21st, 2005, 20:45	#14
fender_jag Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: California Posts: 1,245	Re: What to do? [ QUOTE ] Wasn't it Spock that said "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one?" [/ QUOTE ] As long as I'm not that "one"!

February 22nd, 2005, 21:17	#15
Bigey Old Skool Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Socal Posts: 2,636	Re: What to do? Haha i know this isnt really an answer to the question, but one time i was listening to SoCal approach. A united flight was passing through. Bout 30 seconds as he contacted him, i heard him declaring an emergency. My eyes lit up! I hoped it wasnt anything serious, but it ended up a passenger had a heart attack! I've never seen a 757 descend so fast! Like 70 miles out..it was like at 35,000 and then boom, no more than 40 miles later, he was at 6,000. I know it might not be that crazy for anyone else, but i definately was amazed by the whole situation. Oh and yeah, the person was fine, after catching up with it from ATC!

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