Engine problems........should we continue?

[mrivc211]

Your flying into an airport during day VFR conditions with scattered clouds and returning to an airport with which an actual approach must be made due to wx. As you make the landing at your destination and are taxing off the runway, your right engine goes into autofeather!!! In other words, it went into feather and you did not want it too. The airplane has a switch that you actuate in case an engine failure were to occur, it would automatically throw the engine into feather. A la autofeather. You taxi to the gate and the captain immediately starts thinking to himself outloud. Never involving you in the discussion until his mind is made up to continue. He then calls maintenance control and confers with a mechanic and tells him that he wants to give it a "go" and is comfortable with continuing. Then upon reaching his decision to continue turns to you and says, are you ok with that?

Mind you this..........the destination where the certain crew has landed at has no company mechanic and a contract mechanic cannot look at a problem of this nature. A company mechanic would have to be flown in to look at the problem which would take 4-5 hours at the least. Additionally, it is the second to last leg of a four day trip in which the captain has done the same kind of decision making. None of this serious of nature.

What would you do? What could you do?

Keep in mind, think carefully and REALLY put your shoes in this FO's feet. He has not passed his one year probation with the company, so the captain can and most likely will write a bad review if upset. Additionally, the FO still has 3 more trips remaining with this captain for the rest of the month and must endure 3 more weeks of flying with him.

[JEP]

On one hand, I would say that if the captain is comfortable, I would probably continue on. I would not be too upset if he did not "keep me in the loop" as long as he explained to me how he came to his decision.

But then on the other hand, do you really fell that unsafe about continuing or is it more being upset with how the captain came to his decision.

One would have to ask themselves, what is more important, a possible bad review or their not feeling completely comfortable with continuing.

I hope this is a fictional person and not someone with whom you have 3 more trips this month.

[mrivc211]

hey now!!!!

[JEP]

I know it's a what if , sorry. Now maybe I may be a little to trusting, but with:

me being new
the captain having more experience (and I assume not having a death wish)

I think I would just say that if he is o.k. with it, then I am too. If I feel uncomfortable with how the process shook out, I would place that in the back of my mind and remember how I felt so that once I make captain, I will treat the FO's differently.

Now one question I have, is if the flight did continue and there was a problem that occured, what would the ramifications be? I am guessing that the "crew" would be held responsible and not just the captain. So if that is the case, maybe I would not feel as comfortable.

Ughhh! The decisions one has to make !!!!!

[mrivc211]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I would just say that if he is o.k. with it, then I am too. If I feel uncomfortable with how the process shook out, I would place that in the back of my mind and remember how I felt so that once I make captain, I will treat the FO's differently.

Now one question I have, is if the flight did continue and there was a problem that occured, what would the ramifications be? I am guessing that the "crew" would be held responsible and not just the captain. So if that is the case, maybe I would not feel as comfortable.

Ughhh! The decisions one has to make !!!!!



[/ QUOTE ]


hmmmm.............sounds familiar!!!

[SteveC]

One possibility that I see in this situation is that the Captain has actually done some (mental) troubleshooting of the problem, has determined the probable cause of the autofeather (to his satisfaction), confirmed his theory with maintanence, and has not done a good job of communicating the reason for his decision with the FO. If the Captain does a better job of describing his thought process in troubleshooting the cause(s), maybe the FO will feel comfortable with the final decision.

If this is the true circumstance (lots of conjecture on my part here), maybe the FO's response to "Are you all right with that?" is to say "Would you please explain the cause of the autofeather for me again? I'd like to better understand what is happening" or something similar.

It is right to be concerned about "get-home-itis" affecting (effecting?) decision making, but considering that maintenance has apparently concurred with the Captain's decision I would recommend the FO spend some more time trying to get the Captain to verbalize his thought process before disagreeing with the decision. If the FO really understands the Captain's decision making process and still disagrees with it and sees a potential safety problem, then it is time to speak up.

Another possibility is that the Captain may be acting as if the Newbie FO doesn't know anything, or the Captain may be the type that has to "be the boss" and "know all the answers" in the eyes of subordinates, and may feel that his "authority" or "Captainess" will be jepordized by consulting with the FO. This can be a difficult position for the FO and should be handled diplomatically, but always with an eye towards safety. I think that a response of "I'm not comfortable with that decision" could automatically put the Captain on the defensive since it implies that the FO thinks the Captain is making an unsafe decision. The Captain's defensive posture could be exacerbated if he has not fully explained his thought process to the FO. Therefore the better approach is to ask questions from the point of view of trying to learn, not to question his decision (and, by implication, his experience and authority).

Communication is the key.

[mrivc211]

[ QUOTE ]
or the Captain may be the type that has to "be the boss" and "know all the answers" in the eyes of subordinates, and may feel that his "authority" or "Captainess" will be jepordized by consulting with the FO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Welcome to that FO's whole day today and rest of the month. I heard that same poor FO got reemed at today for calling out a B747 in sight 5 miles ahead in a bank preceeding him without "consulting with the captain first". I heard you had to be blind not to have seen the whale, and it was more of a, I'm the boss here, and don't you forget it type of deal!!!

How many can have days like that then smile? Thank god for JC's.

[FlyChicaga]

Who was flying? The FO or the CPT when the 747 was called in sight?

[mrivc211]

well............lets just say the FO never has to fly with that captain ever again!!!

[EatSleepFly]

That F/O should never say never, unless the CA died or got canned...

[stuckingfk]

[ QUOTE ]
well............lets just say the FO never has to fly with that captain ever again!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, What happened?

[skydog]

The aircraft just had what amounts to an engine failure. The fact that it occurred on the ground doesn't change that. I would write it up and not fly it again until the aircraft had been repaired and signed off by maintenance.

On another note, I don't like it when an pilot uses the words "comfortable" or "uncomfortable" when making an aeronautical decision. That is a cop out. A Part 121 aircrew ought to be able to articulate why they will or won't take an airplane or flight.

[Mr_Creepy]

"Comfortable" is one of the 4 C's of Crew Resource Management.

I'm trying to clear the cobwebs and remember them all ...

They are the 4 different levels of CRM, you start at the bottom and elevate until both pilots are satisfied.

Communicate - State the situation - "We are heading for a line of thunderstorms."
Concern - State your concern - "Should we do this?"
Comfort - "I'm not comfortable with this"
Confront - "I'm not going to let you do this."

I may be off a little but I'm pretty sure that's what we taught in CRM classes way back when (2002.)

[Doug Taylor]

Whenever I wasn't comfortable with an aircraft and stated it clearly to the captain, he's always respected that.

From my perspective, there's a couple of issues. Don't automatically assume that the guy you're flying with understands the malfunctioning system. Also, don't be afraid to take an opportunity to pull out the aircraft manual from your flight case and take a good look at the system along with the MEL.

Here's a good example. At my other airline, we landed in MCI and had a red "BLEED AIR" annunciator (I haven't flown a Beech 1900 in years so I can't remember exactly how the system works or exactly the name of the annunciator).

We talked to maintenance and off the bat, he wanted to write up the annunciator and redispatch back to OMA with passengers.

The captain, pretty close to leaving for a bigger and better airline, didn't want to make any waves and agrees with writing up the annunicator although I had vast suspicions that the annunciator functioned correctly and we had an actual bleed air problem.

I pulled out the manual reviewed the system and started talking to the captain about how enroute we were having problems getting the de-icing boot to function correctly and how the annunciator only illuminated at certain power settings. I also showed him that if the annunciator was actually functioning correctly and if we infact did have a bleed air leak, we're pumping mega hot air into the leading edge and that was something I'm uncomfortable with because we could end up with an uncontrollable airframe fire.

The captain calls maintenance back and says that we wanted a mechanic to have a look at the aircraft before we accepted a maintenance deferral.

They send a TWA mechanic out that takes a quick peek at the wrong wing, then the correct wing, shrugs and notifies maintenance that he doesn't think anything is wrong.

We try to explain to the mechanic, who apparently had no experience with a Beech 1900 where the lines were and he insisted that we call over Air Midwest (who flew 1900's for USAir Express at MCI).

Our maintenance controller at HQ hemmed and hawed but agreed to call over a Air Midwest Beech 1900 mechanic from across the airport.

After arriving, the new mechanic pulled some panels, pulled out his flashlight and exclaims, "Holy #####!"

The annuniciator did function correctly, we were leaking bleed air and we, in fact, had extensive heat damage to the inner surfaces, which is bad news.

To make a long-winded story a little shorter, if something doesn't pass the smell test, don't leave until your comfortable. The captain is the captain because he's more senior than you and not because he's the Quasimodo Jedi King of All Aircraft.

[Mr_Creepy]

Wow that brings back memories.

We used to have regular meetings on that Bleed Air annunciator problem.

We were finally convinced by Raytheon-Beech staff at Wichita that the 18psi like (which is the bleed air line) is "not that hot" and the Deferred Maintenance Item was in fact safe. We were worried about a possible wing fire, but they told us that they had experience with "an incident from another airline" where all it caused was "some spotting on the metal inside the wing leading edge."

That may have been you! Was this in 1999 by any chance?

[Doug Taylor]

Nah, I left Skyway in 1997 (actually January 98 but there was some 'creative' bidding going on).

[flyguy]

I guess it would come down to my knowledge of the aircraft systems, and like doug said, pulling out the manual and doing some research. It would depend on the situation. Was there any indication of trouble in the air? Is it common for a fluke occurance of this sort of thing? What kinds of problems serious or minor does this imply? What is the likelyhood it might happen again, and what is the worst case scenerio? I'd want to answer these types of questions to help with my decision.

[Mr_Creepy]

[ QUOTE ]
Nah, I left Skyway in 1997 (actually January 98 but there was some 'creative' bidding going on).

[/ QUOTE ]

Still could have been you - the meeting we had was in 1999. They didn't actually mention the date of the "other airline incident."

At any rate, it was an ongoing controversy. I was never really comfortable with that MEL.

[moxiepilot]

The flip side of Doug's post is to also look at the severity of the situation. Bleed air is pretty serious, and I'm not saying autofeather malfunction isn't but let me look at this scenerio as the devil's advocate.

The captain is the captain is the captain. unless I'm going to die, he is the only personality in the a/c. That doesn't mean I'm not going to put in my $.02 though by asking why he thinks it's safe

I'd assume that the a/c is being used 121 or 135 operations which means that it would have to have single engine climb capabilities for obstacle clearance on take off after engine failure.
Feathering the prop would give you the same scenerio as an engine failure. So if that's the what's going to happen - the auto feather feathers the prop after v1 - you're still going.
The auto feather electric circuts are independant of one another

If we look at furthering the worst case scenerio I can only think of a few limitations:
-Cross wind limitation at landing: what happens when you chunk this engine on landing - what's your x-wind limitation
-hydrolic pressure is lost in the hub after auto feather malfunction before prop locks - now you're looking at a windmilling prop if at idle - but that's one of the conditions vmc is predicated on - or overspeeding if your power quad gets stuck

it seems to me like a whole bunch will have to go in combo to affect serious issues of controlability

I'm not saying I'm for going - I'm just trying to figure out why the Cap't said okay. It would take a lot on probation to stand up to this captn

[Doug Taylor]

It's really a tightrope.

But if your chief pilot is worth the 'trip drops', he's going to support your questioning the captain, even if the captain was right.

If you create and foster an environment of never questioning the captains authority when things don't seem kosher, you need to look no further than some of the Korean Airline accidents, Tenerife and a few others to see what unquestioned authority leads to.

I really haven't flown with many "It's my way or it's the highway" captains, probably only about two or three in my almost decade-long airline career. In my personal opinion, any real captain wouldn't depart the gate until the situation is cleared up and all parties are comfortable with the aircraft.

[mrivc211]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd assume that the a/c is being used 121 or 135 operations which means that it would have to have single engine climb capabilities for obstacle clearance on take off after engine failure.
Feathering the prop would give you the same scenerio as an engine failure. So if that's the what's going to happen - the auto feather feathers the prop after v1 - you're still going.


[/ QUOTE ]

Although this may be true, when it comes down to it and your sitting there in the airplane filling out the Vspeeds for V1 Vr V2 etc and they're all working out to be the heaviest numbers the airplane can take, you sorda think twice about whether losing an engine being an event or not.

I''ll tell ya.............in the sim...........if you do't pitch up to 10 degrees RIGHT AWAY after an engine failure during takeoff, your going to crash!!!. Having said that, going thru takeoff after takeoff after takeoff, you start to become a little comfortable. Just when you get comfortable, the engine fails, you are caught with your pants down, and the rest is history.

I just picked up an airplane out of SFO last week that had landed just hours prior and had a flame out of the #2 engine during vectors for an approach. Turns out the # 2 fuel guage malfunctioned. You never know which phase of flight it will happen.

[Kingairer]

Write it up. Dont mess with engine problems. I would probably write it up, and call mx only to tell them its in the book, not to confer.