thoughts on cape air/jet blue/university gateway

[TXaviator]

well, just got back from the presentation and it does seem like an interesting idea.

i see where it benefits the university as they are trying desperately to lock-in instructors to staying with them for a year....

...the claim is that if you 'sign up' for this program (which is non-contractual) you have to stay at UND for a year instructing and then you move to cape air for 2-3 years then on to jetBlue.

cape air sounds great as does jetblue, so no gripes there.

my question however, is does this program really offer such an attractive package that it will sway SJS-types to stay at UND and instruct, or will they bail for the "low time" regionals at first chance....(200TT + pulse)

i can see where perhaps it would work for capeair and jetblue as it will self-select the pilots who really want to go work for cape air and or jet blue, but im wondering how many will realllllly dedicate to that when theyre getting job offers elsewhere right away.

thoughts?

[TXaviator]

they also mentioned cape air pilots are flying between 45 and 55 hours, PER WEEK.

....and then were like ooh but they make 35-40k a year!

so i guess it evens out, but that does seem like a somewhat high workload.

[CRJ700]

Originally Posted by TXaviator

they also mentioned cape air pilots are flying between 45 and 55 hours, PER WEEK.

....and then were like ooh but they make 35-40k a year!

so i guess it evens out, but that does seem like a somewhat high workload.

I researched it after I got back, I found this is the per hour pay. "Starting C-402 Captain pay is $12.80 per duty hour."

This is my view on Cape Air/JetBlue gateway.
Cape Air Req.- 1500TT
Jetblue Req.- 1500TT

? Do you really need the Cape Air Experience to enhance your flying experience.? It sounded cool in the presentation with Single pilot stuff and logging mega hours, but if your going to go to another airline which is a major. I'd think I would want hours in a CRM environment in something that would be comparable to an Airbus/Boeing, what have you. ?

[JaceTheAce]

Here's more info - gotta love the 1994 website design!!!

http://www.flycapeairjobs.com

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by TXaviator

they also mentioned cape air pilots are flying between 45 and 55 hours, PER WEEK.

....and then were like ooh but they make 35-40k a year!

so i guess it evens out, but that does seem like a somewhat high workload.

45 hours times just 48 weeks is 2160 hours. They just letting these guys time out half way through the year?

[Velocipede]

Of course they won't. Its just a scam to get more idiots to sign up for indentured servitude based on a promise of going to a protoscab airline like jetBlue.

That's how ALL non-Union companies operate. They get you to sell your soul for a promise while they demean the value of your labor by low pay/no benefits.

Anyone who suckers in to this scam is nuts.

[TXaviator]

Originally Posted by CRJ700

I researched it after I got back, I found this is the per hour pay. "Starting C-402 Captain pay is $12.80 per duty hour."

BZZZZT. totally ended my interest right there. yeah they fly cool places but holy hell my skills are worth more than McDonalds shift-manager pay.

i'll be continuing my job search elsewhere.

[juxtapilot]

Originally Posted by JaceTheAce

Here's more info - gotta love the 1994 website design!!!

http://www.flycapeairjobs.com

My thoughts exactly.

[Doug Taylor]

Dang! That's pre-retro!

[Velocipede]

If you're a UND trained pilot, you're WAY to good to aspire to bottom feeder airlines like jetBlue, Allegiant, Virgin and Skybus.

Don't let SJS sucker you in.

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by TXaviator

BZZZZT. totally ended my interest right there. yeah they fly cool places but holy hell my skills are worth more than McDonalds shift-manager pay.

i'll be continuing my job search elsewhere.

That actually isn't that bad of a pay rate for twin piston with what 8 seats?? Pay per duty hour would add up pretty fast vs having a 12 hour duty day and only being paid for 4 hours of flight time.

[cfii2007]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

Of course they won't. Its just a scam to get more idiots to sign up for indentured servitude based on a promise of going to a protoscab airline like jetBlue.

That's how ALL non-Union companies operate. They get you to sell your soul for a promise while they demean the value of your labor by low pay/no benefits.

Anyone who suckers in to this scam is nuts.

I hate to admit it.......but you are probably right.

[CRJ700]

Originally Posted by Dugie8

That actually isn't that bad of a pay rate for twin piston with what 8 seats?? Pay per duty hour would add up pretty fast vs having a 12 hour duty day and only being paid for 4 hours of flight time.

I agree $35,000 to be a captain of a twin piston with 8 seats isn't that bad. But if you were at the meeting, they were comparing their payrate to other regional airlines. By the time you get to Cape Air's 1500 TT which I expect to take at least 2 years after graduating UND, you can be Captain or close to Captain making more then 50k easy.

[Velocipede]

Except you're assuming you'll go directly to the left seat. It doesn't usually work that way, but at non-Union scumbag airlines, anything is possible.

Heck, Virgin is proud of the fact that they have "merit promotion."

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by CRJ700

I agree $35,000 to be a captain of a twin piston with 8 seats isn't that bad. But if you were at the meeting, they were comparing their payrate to other regional airlines. By the time you get to Cape Air's 1500 TT which I expect to take at least 2 years after graduating UND, you can be Captain or close to Captain making more then 50k easy.

Man I missed the bus somewhere, been 6 years since I left UND and I am just now making Captain


Seriously, the quick upgrades are a thing of the past, at least for those that this deal would seem to benefit (if we can call it that). We can argue the merits of JetBlue and the like elsewhere, I really like this "deal" IF, and that is a big IF, it pans out. UND get some people to stick around for a few years increasing the instructor experience pool, those people then get to move into a Captain position and hone their skills even further then move onto a career type airline. Seems like a good way to do things, on the surface.

[CRJ700]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

Except you're assuming you'll go directly to the left seat. It doesn't usually work that way, but at non-Union scumbag airlines, anything is possible.

Heck, Virgin is proud of the fact that they have "merit promotion."

What I mean to say is that you'll be able to make more money going to a respectable regional. Instructing at UND for 2 years after graduation and then going the Cape Air Route wouldn't pay as much going to a regional airline.
Year 1
UND Instructor- 15,000?
Regional Airline- 20,000
Year 2
UND Instructor- 15,000
Regional Airline- 30,000
Year 3
Cape Air- 35,000
Regional FO-35,000
or Regional Captain (DEPENDING On Upgrade)-50,000+

Year 3 Totals
Cape Air Route- Around 60k
Respectable Regional- Between 85k and 100k

[CRJ700]

Originally Posted by Dugie8

Man I missed the bus somewhere, been 6 years since I left UND and I am just now making Captain


Seriously, the quick upgrades are a thing of the past, at least for those that this deal would seem to benefit (if we can call it that). We can argue the merits of JetBlue and the like elsewhere, I really like this "deal" IF, and that is a big IF, it pans out. UND get some people to stick around for a few years increasing the instructor experience pool, those people then get to move into a Captain position and hone their skills even further then move onto a career type airline. Seems like a good way to do things, on the surface.

What Regional Airline are you at Dugie?

From my knowledge of the industry its is very much possible to upgrade under around 3 years. These are upgrade times I've seen people achieve or have heard of this year.
ASA-3
Mesaba (SF340)- Has seen 6 months recently
XJT-2-3
AWA-3
Pinnacle- 2

I think that the deal would only be good when the industry starts to slow down the hiring of pilots and raises the pilot minimums again. But until then I think there are more efficient ways of building time to reach the major airlines that will make you more well rounded.

[UAL747400]

Originally Posted by CRJ700

What I mean to say is that you'll be able to make more money going to a respectable regional. Instructing at UND for 2 years after graduation and then going the Cape Air Route wouldn't pay as much going to a regional airline.
Year 1
UND Instructor- 15,000?
Regional Airline- 20,000
Year 2
UND Instructor- 15,000
Regional Airline- 30,000
Year 3
Cape Air- 35,000
Regional FO-35,000
or Regional Captain (DEPENDING On Upgrade)-50,000+

Year 3 Totals
Cape Air Route- Around 60k
Respectable Regional- Between 85k and 100k

I think UND pay is more around the 25k range once you're full time and are teaching instrument students. Initial CFI qualified would put you around 30k. This is just the math I've done myself, but I could be off. I just always here some of the more experienced guys here complaining about taking a significant pay cut when leaving here for a regional.

[CRJ700]

Originally Posted by UAL747400

I think UND pay is more around the 25k range once you're full time and are teaching instrument students. Initial CFI qualified would put you around 30k. This is just the math I've done myself, but I could be off. I just always here some of the more experienced guys here complaining about taking a significant pay cut when leaving here for a regional.

Ok I wasn't sure exactly, but in all the cape air route still doesn't add up to regional route.

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by CRJ700

What Regional Airline are you at Dugie?

From my knowledge of the industry its is very much possible to upgrade under around 3 years. These are upgrade times I've seen people achieve or have heard of this year.
ASA-3
Mesaba (SF340)- Has seen 6 months recently
XJT-2-3
AWA-3
Pinnacle- 2

I think that the deal would only be good when the industry starts to slow down the hiring of pilots and raises the pilot minimums again. But until then I think there are more efficient ways of building time to reach the major airlines that will make you more well rounded.

Not at a regional, was at PDT and the uprgrades there are running about 4 years. XJT just canceled all of their upgrades, Mesaba I don't think is upgrading as quick anymore, and when NWA parks all the DC9s get ready for Eagle part deux via Compass. ASA, well lets not touch them with a 10 foot pool as far as anything being a guarantee. That leaves AWA (Air Wisky I believe), that could be the only one right now because of attrition and that attrition is from the higher end of the seniority scale, a lot from the lower end too, that has to raise a red flag somewhere.

It seems to me, and this is a hugomungous IF, this deal is what it appears to be there is more of a guarantee of moving to a career type Major quicker and thus higher lifetime earnings and QOL than gambline on upgrade times at any one of those Regionals.

[Snickersnwa]

Originally Posted by Dugie8

XJT just canceled all of their upgrades

XJT's starting back up again

[CRJ700]

Originally Posted by Dugie8

Man I missed the bus somewhere, been 6 years since I left UND and I am just now making Captain

Where do you get your 6 year upgrade from? You can't base it off of your personal experiences if you have worked for more then one company in those 6 years. I got my numbers of upgrade times from real sources!

[Booker]

Originally Posted by Dugie8

XJT just canceled all of their upgrades

As Snickerswa mentioned, there's currently a bid out with 32 captain vacancies for March and April classes. Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

[BuickCFI]

Originally Posted by CRJ700

What I mean to say is that you'll be able to make more money going to a respectable regional. Instructing at UND for 2 years after graduation and then going the Cape Air Route wouldn't pay as much going to a regional airline.
Year 1
UND Instructor- 15,000?
Regional Airline- 20,000
Year 2
UND Instructor- 15,000
Regional Airline- 30,000
Year 3
Cape Air- 35,000
Regional FO-35,000
or Regional Captain (DEPENDING On Upgrade)-50,000+

Year 3 Totals
Cape Air Route- Around 60k
Respectable Regional- Between 85k and 100k

i made nearly 15,000 from Aug 20ish to the end of december. full time CFI initial at UND is more like 35-40K/yr

[CRJ700]

Originally Posted by BuickCFI

i made nearly 15,000 from Aug 20ish to the end of december. full time CFI initial at UND is more like 35-40K/yr

You won't be making that much immediately following graduation because you won't be on the CFI initial payscale. I also bet there is more of a chance to earn a more steady income in the fall semester than the spring.