222 Partial Panel

[juxtapilot]

Word around campus is that the 222 TCO is going to change to include no moving map partial panel procedures. Apparently students weren't able to fly an ILS without the moving map line (omg) so they are revising the TCO. Sounds pretty nifty.

[ChadW346]

lol...

[the_dmn8tr]

Are you saying it is going in the TCO? I thought it already was because I had to do partial panel approaches on both of the stages. I thought they were pretty simple.

[Micaoct]

I think you only do partial panel now on the PFD and not the MFD which has the map. People still used the MFD and had the PFD off, now they are revising it so that both screens have to be off?!

What am I going to do now? How am I going to pass the course?

I don't think I ever even seen the map page on the MFD. We always have it on the traffic page.

[TXaviator]

explain how in the glass you are gonna shoot an ILS with the PFD gone.

GS from where??

maybe a LOC, but an ILS would be mighty tough!!

[the_dmn8tr]

Yeah, an ILS partial panel would pretty much be out of the question since the LOC and GS are on the PFD. It only really seems possible with GPS approaches. You can do a VOR but it would be with the GPS overlay and then become a GPS which in that case would not really be legal.

[AngelFuree]

There will be no moving map display available for use during the demonstration of partial-panel operations.

To be honest, I'm happy this is being done. All you need is the GPS Nav page (non-moving map) to assist you with flying an approach. It's amazing to see an over-reliance on the map and a lack of situational awareness during partial panel.

Hell, in fact, I would love to see 222 being taught in the traditional six-pack. Call me old-fashioned, it's ok.

edit: Oh, and if you guys take a look at the Instrument PTS, there is no requirement for a partial panel ILS operation. The requirements are a non-precision approach, partial panel, only.

[UAL747400]

Ha, I took away the moving map anyway when I was covering for a buddy of mines 222 students.

You could fly the localizer with a PDF lamp failure only(if the PDF is indeed failed, GPS only for you), except you could only do it with the autopilot. Hand flying is out of the question. Unless you fly the overlay I guess.

Is trusting the autopilot to fly an approach with no way to really watch what it's doing a good idea? Probably not, but the option is there. In a real situation, you're damn right I'd have the moving map up on the MFD. It is a tool that should be used and it would be a complete lack of judgment not to use all the tools you have available. In training though, take that ish away!!

[Micaoct]

Never mind my brain is frozen.

[Snickersnwa]

Originally Posted by the_dmn8tr

Yeah, an ILS partial panel would pretty much be out of the question since the LOC and GS are on the PFD. It only really seems possible with GPS approaches. You can do a VOR but it would be with the GPS overlay and then become a GPS which in that case would not really be legal.

Bingo... GPS it is. (Or I guess a PAR or ASR would work )

[JaceTheAce]

Originally Posted by AngelFuree

Hell, in fact, I would love to see 222 being taught in the traditional six-pack. Call me old-fashioned, it's ok.

I totally agree with this. I am so glad I used the regular 6-pack Warrior for 222. "Oh the airlines only use glass nowadays so let's force students to pay more money for glass and teach on that"...well folks, I fly a Dash 8 with old-fashioned steam gauges! Many airlines still use the 6-pack.

[TXaviator]

Originally Posted by UAL747400

Ha, I took away the moving map anyway when I was covering for a buddy of mines 222 students.

You could fly the localizer with a PDF lamp failure only(if the PDF is indeed failed, GPS only for you), except you could only do it with the autopilot. Hand flying is out of the question. Unless you fly the overlay I guess.

Is trusting the autopilot to fly an approach with no way to really watch what it's doing a good idea? Probably not, but the option is there. In a real situation, you're damn right I'd have the moving map up on the MFD. It is a tool that should be used and it would be a complete lack of judgment not to use all the tools you have available. In training though, take that ish away!!

why could you only fly a LOC with autopilot? ive flown the overlay by hand... no different than any other lateral guidance with the gps...

maybe im not understanding what youre saying.

[juxtapilot]

Originally Posted by JaceTheAce

I totally agree with this. I am so glad I used the regular 6-pack Warrior for 222. "Oh the airlines only use glass nowadays so let's force students to pay more money for glass and teach on that"...well folks, I fly a Dash 8 with old-fashioned steam gauges! Many airlines still use the 6-pack.

Funny you say this. I went in and talked to Rob Clausen to see about using a 6 pack for 222. The answer was simply "no" as airlines absolutly do not use steam guages anymore. So I guess that would mean Colgan, ASA, Mesaba, Commutair, Skywest and Piedmont to name a few have all gone to glass cockpit configurations. I think this is a bunch of crap though... Why we have glass in any course below CFII is beyond me.

[Stinger]

When was the switch made for 222 to be in all glass?? I have a friend doing 102 in the glass right now, but I'm pretty sure that you can still do the traditional gauges right?

[juxtapilot]

102 can be either. you have the option. I think 221 will probably go all glass next fall, then 102 will go glass in the spring. 222 is all glass right now; 6-pack is not an option.

[TheShocker]

Originally Posted by juxtapilot

102 can be either. you have the option. I think 221 will probably go all glass next fall, then 102 will go glass in the spring. 222 is all glass right now; 6-pack is not an option.

I have heard of a 102 ground instructor surveying her class, she asked how many were in the glass vs. 6 pack! Only one student answered yes to the 6 pack.

[XcalibeR]

I'm a fan of the 6 pack too. I think it's a lot more fun. And easier, for that matter. But what really surprised me was when I was doing my 415-22, when it came time to do the partial panel GPS, I flipped to Nav4, only to have my stage pilot change it BACK to the moving map, telling me that having Nav4 up was "too easy". I just gave him a dumb look that said "are you kidding me?" I doubled it up on Nav1 after that, I just couldn't believe he actually told me to use the map.

[AngelFuree]

Originally Posted by XcalibeR

I'm a fan of the 6 pack too. I think it's a lot more fun. And easier, for that matter. But what really surprised me was when I was doing my 415-22, when it came time to do the partial panel GPS, I flipped to Nav4, only to have my stage pilot change it BACK to the moving map, telling me that having Nav4 up was "too easy". I just gave him a dumb look that said "are you kidding me?" I doubled it up on Nav1 after that, I just couldn't believe he actually told me to use the map.

You could have changed the fields on the moving map to indicate both, Desired Track, and Track and it would have been even easier. hehehe...........

I really like the Glass Warrior because it is extremely simple to use and amazing to fly IFR with. Flying IFR with the Avidyne system is cheating. However, I think for initial training, it is not the best as pilots tend to rely on the features. Once they hop back into the six-pack airplanes, it becomes another story....situational awareness chaos.

[JaceTheAce]

Originally Posted by juxtapilot

Funny you say this. I went in and talked to Rob Clausen to see about using a 6 pack for 222. The answer was simply "no" as airlines absolutly do not use steam guages anymore. So I guess that would mean Colgan, ASA, Mesaba, Commutair, Skywest and Piedmont to name a few have all gone to glass cockpit configurations. I think this is a bunch of crap though... Why we have glass in any course below CFII is beyond me.

He's full of crap. Look at all the Southwest 737s... and yes, all the regionals you listed. Colgan Saabs and 1900s are steam gauges. The Dash 8 at Piedmont is... well, "those old-fashioned steam gauges"!!!

[TXaviator]

WTFFFFFF?????

doing your private pilot in glass?

holy crap. theres a WORLD of aviation out there that does not have anything to do with flying glass..... how unfortunate.

[BuickCFI]

Originally Posted by AngelFuree

There will be no moving map display available for use during the demonstration of partial-panel operations.

To be honest, I'm happy this is being done. All you need is the GPS Nav page (non-moving map) to assist you with flying an approach. It's amazing to see an over-reliance on the map and a lack of situational awareness during partial panel.

Hell, in fact, I would love to see 222 being taught in the traditional six-pack. Call me old-fashioned, it's ok.

edit: Oh, and if you guys take a look at the Instrument PTS, there is no requirement for a partial panel ILS operation. The requirements are a non-precision approach, partial panel, only.

i might have had something to do with that

i think we should still teach everything in the 6 pack. i can tell you one thing for sure, if your student gets me for a stage 53 and they set up everything imaginable including loading the approach for anything but a GPS approach, I WILL NOT BE IMPRESSED

[TheShocker]

Originally Posted by BuickCFI

i might have had something to do with that

i think we should still teach everything in the 6 pack. i can tell you one thing for sure, if your student gets me for a stage 53 and they set up everything imaginable including loading the approach for anything but a GPS approach, I WILL NOT BE IMPRESSED

I at least hope you brief this before going on a flight! If I have a resource available at my disposal, I will use it. I agree however, the wealth of information available with the glass can leave one stumbling if they were to transition to the 6 pack.

[BuickCFI]

Originally Posted by TheShocker

I at least hope you brief this before going on a flight! If I have a resource available at my disposal, I will use it. I agree however, the wealth of information available with the glass can leave one stumbling if they were to transition to the 6 pack.

no just that they should set it up the way they would to fly it. but seriously i am much more impressed when i see someone just use straight up VOR's and DME info for situational awareness than i am by have 3 moving maps all showing the same info, or loading an overlay for an approach that doesn't require it (anything but the GPS approaches). it's great that they can use the equipment, but that doesn't impress me, and it won't influence my decision on whether or not you met standards

[JaceTheAce]

Originally Posted by TXaviator

WTFFFFFF?????

doing your private pilot in glass?

holy crap. theres a WORLD of aviation out there that does not have anything to do with flying glass..... how unfortunate.

...SJS kids................

[BuickCFI]

Originally Posted by JaceTheAce

...SJS kids................

didn't you get hired at 201T? then again you aren't flying a jet, but that isn't the point