Plane Missing

[VDEE7]

The NTSB's preliminary is out!

[JEP]

Originally Posted by VDEE7

The NTSB's preliminary is out!

and here it is:

NTSB Identification: CHI08FA027
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Tuesday, October 23, 2007 in Browerville, MN
Aircraft: Piper PA-44-180, registration: N327ND
Injuries: 2 Fatal.

This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.

On October 23, 2007, about 2210 central daylight time, a twin-engine Piper PA-44-180, N327ND, piloted by a private pilot and a flight instructor, was substantially damaged during an in-flight collision with terrain near Browerville, Minnesota. The dual instructional flight was being conducted under 14 CFR Part 91 on a visual flight rules (VFR) flight plan. The pilot and flight instructor were fatally injured. Night visual meteorological conditions prevailed at the time of the accident. The cross-country flight departed St. Paul Downtown Airport (STP), St. Paul, Minnesota, at 2115. The intended destination was Grand Forks International Airport (GFK), Grand Forks, North Dakota.

The pilot was enrolled in the Commercial/Instrument Pilot Airplane training program at the University of North Dakota. A university flight instructor accompanied the pilot on the flight. The flight initially departed GFK at 1745, and made an intermediate stop at Hutson Field Airport (GAF), Grafton, North Dakota, before continuing to STP. The flight arrived at STP at 2000, and subsequently departed on the accident flight at 2115.

The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) Minneapolis Air Route Traffic Control Center (ARTCC) provided VFR flight-following services to the flight until 2155. At that time, the flight was approaching the extent of normal radar coverage and the flight-following services were subsequently terminated. The flight was approximately 2 miles west of Little Falls, Minnesota, at 4,500 feet mean sea level (msl), at that time. During the time flight-following services were provided, communications with the flight were routine and no deviations in the airplane's flight path were observed. The pilots did not communicate any difficulties or anomalies prior to the accident

.

[BuickCFI]

but that is what we already know?

[TXaviator]

Originally Posted by BuickCFI

but that is what we already know?

yeah that was thoroughly anti-climactic

add to list of "things i already know"

[JEP]

Originally Posted by TXaviator

any new developments here?

Originally Posted by BuickCFI

nothing on ntsb yet

Originally Posted by VDEE7

The NTSB's preliminary is out!

Originally Posted by BuickCFI

but that is what we already know?

Originally Posted by TXaviator

yeah that was thoroughly anti-climactic

add to list of "things i already know"

Just answering the question that's all.

This contained a little more information than the trusty news papers.

[BuickCFI]

Originally Posted by JEP

Just answering the question that's all.

This contained a little more information than the trusty news papers.

i won't disagree it is from a reliable source

[TheDizzle]

Unfortunately this is a reality of the profession we've all chosen. Even though this is a huge tragedy and sucks beyond belief, something can be taken and learned from it. I'm an 04' alum and have had a couple friends meet the same tragic fate doing something they loved so much. At first it's unbelievable and downright eerie, but in the end it's a wake-up call. None of us are immune to the random tragic events that sometimes unfold while flying an airplane. None of you will ever forget this, and that's a good thing. This just might make you better pilots, I know I am from having been in the same situation. Good luck with your flying.

RIP Annette and Adam

[TXaviator]

Originally Posted by BuickCFI

i won't disagree it is from a reliable source

right and right, but still all this says is "the plane crashed here at this time"

not really the information (the why and how) that a lot of us are curious to hear about

[AngelFuree]

Originally Posted by TXaviator

right and right, but still all this says is "the plane crashed here at this time"

not really the information (the why and how) that a lot of us are curious to hear about

Right, but I guess they can't really jump to conclusions with less than a month having passed since the accident.

[SIUAv8r]

Well, I hate the fact that I am just now reading about this. I am deeply sorry for your loss. RIP

Fly Safe!

[TXaviator]

Originally Posted by AngelFuree

Right, but I guess they can't really jump to conclusions with less than a month having passed since the accident.

while i understand that a cause may not be readily apparent, i also have a hard time understanding how determining a cause of crash for a small aircraft takes nearly a year.

a large craft with thousands of feet of wiring to sift through, millions of parts, sure.

but a small twin found in a heap, dunno, admittedly i am not a trained accident investigator so i do not know how the process works.

[ctab5060X]

Originally Posted by TXaviator

while i understand that a cause may not be readily apparent, i also have a hard time understanding how determining a cause of crash for a small aircraft takes nearly a year.

a large craft with thousands of feet of wiring to sift through, millions of parts, sure.

but a small twin found in a heap, dunno, admittedly i am not a trained accident investigator so i do not know how the process works.

Just stumbled across this thread and to those affected, I truly feel for you. I know what it is like to lose someone very close to an aviation accident.

I know it is hard to not have answers, especially in something like this, but the NTSB will be as thorough with this accident as any other. That is why it takes so long. They will examine everything they can from parts of the airplane to possible weather factors to anything else that might be related.

I know all of you want the "goodies" of the reasons why and what probably went wrong, but patience is the only advice I can offer. It can take several months for the initial "factual" report to be issued and can take over a year or more for the "probable cause" report to be released. The answers will come in due time. Just keep in mind that the factual report may/probably will contain errors and is not the final report. Furthermore, when everything is said and done, barring evidence of major mechanical or structural failure, the cause of the accident will more than likely fall on the sholders of the pilots involved.

Again, I truly feel for those affected. I have recently been there myself. The only advice I can give is to get back in an airplane as fast as you can and get back into some type of "normal" routine. I know this is hard, but it really helped me and is the best advice I can give.

[XcalibeR]

Has there been any new news since the preliminary report?

[the_dmn8tr]

Originally Posted by XcalibeR

Has there been any new news since the preliminary report?

Not that I can tell. In the latest take-off it mentioned the accident, but it only stated that a seminole had impacted terrain and the NTSB was investigating.

[oktex88]

In class today my professor said that UND released a statement that said they were investigating a "substance" found on the wing of the wreckage and it appears to be DNA from a canadian goose. They were also able to recover data from the PFD that showed the seminole in level flight at 4,500 and then out of control and impacting the ground within a matter of seconds. So they think it was probably a bird strike that brought the seminole down but nothing is final with the NTSB yet.

[Micaoct]

except I heard that matter of seconds was less then 15 seconds or so. It was almost immediate, that is just scary. How do you get from 4,500 to the ground that fast, especially from normal cruise flight. Must of been a big arse goose.

[TXaviator]

holy crap man. anyone got info on how big a goose like that is?

[ASpilot2be]

Originally Posted by TXaviator

holy crap man. anyone got info on how big a goose like that is?

They are definently not small birds.

This species is 76-110 cm (30-43 in) long with a 127-180 cm (50-71 in) wing span.[2] Males usually weigh 3.2–6.5 kg, (7–14 pounds), and can be very aggressive in defending territory. The female looks virtually identical but is slightly lighter at 2.5–5.5 kg (5.5–12 pounds), generally are 10% physically smaller then their male counterparts, and has a different honk. An exceptionally large male of the race B. c. maxima, the "giant Canada goose" (which rarely exceed 8 kg/18 lb), weighed 10.9 kg (24 pounds) and had a wingspan of 2.24 m (88 inches). The life span in the wild is 10-24 years.[2]

[N261ND]

more than likely it was a flock of geese. geese fly together. very rare that only one goose was flying alone at that altitude.

[BuickCFI]

just 1 goose is enough to take down an airplane the size of a seminole if it hits the wing in the right location.

i hit a hawk before with a warrior and that did some pretty good damage, i can only imagine a bird 5-6 times larger!

[Poopsmith]

My instructor and a fellow instructor were commenting on this release yesterday. The instructor we were talking to had flown the incident plane the day before the accident and they had a bird strike during their flight. MX repaired minor damage and returned the plane to service. From what the instructor said is that the bird went through the prop arc and bird blood was everywhere and a leg was found in the intake.

So, i don't know if the goose DNA is as big of a factor as stated. It would have been nice to see this information contained in the press release from UND.

[BuickCFI]

Originally Posted by Poopsmith

My instructor and a fellow instructor were commenting on this release yesterday. The instructor we were talking to had flown the incident plane the day before the accident and they had a bird strike during their flight. MX repaired minor damage and returned the plane to service. From what the instructor said is that the bird went through the prop arc and bird blood was everywhere and a leg was found in the intake.

So, i don't know if the goose DNA is as big of a factor as stated. It would have been nice to see this information contained in the press release from UND.

if they really hit a bird with the prop the day prior, they would have needed to swap out the engine, right? with how backed up MX is i don't see this happening in that time frame. could have though, none of us have the MX records.

i was talking with someone out in CKN a couple weeks ago and he said he had a few friends die in a 206 i think that hit a swan. hit the outboard of the wing, caused an extreme yaw, rolled the plane over and they crashed into a lake up side down.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by BuickCFI

if they really hit a bird with the prop the day prior, they would have needed to swap out the engine, right?

Bird strike shouldn't require an engine exam. It is only when the prop strikes the ground or something solid enough to stop it suddenly that there is a concern about damage back into the engine.

[MrLeisure757]

A friend of mine landed in a Baron with a pelican in the wing.

[BuickCFI]

Originally Posted by SteveC

Bird strike shouldn't require an engine exam. It is only when the prop strikes the ground or something solid enough to stop it suddenly that there is a concern about damage back into the engine.

ahh, i guess that makes sense i always get that mixed up in my head