Previous Licenses

[SY737]

Just some background information. I am a 17 year old Minnesota resident, who is just entering his senior year in high school. I currently have around 42 hours, and am just about to take my checkride (just a matter of a review flight, then scheduling the checkride), also I will probably begin my instrument training right after I get the PPL. I've been looking at the University of North Dakota for the past few years, and it looks like a great place to get my college degree and pursue my dream of commercially flying. I hear that it is not a good idea to come to UND with previously earned licenses, but I cant just STOP my flight training, while being so close to finishing. What are the procedures for a student entering with an IFR rating as well? Is UND still a college I should be considering?


Thanks in Advance, Tony

[JaceTheAce]

You'll have to do the ground school and most of the flying and certain stage checks ALL OVER AGAIN at UND. UND does not honor official FAA-issued licenses since UND thinks they're better than the FAA. It's not worth it. I wouldn't come to UND with any certificate or rating, unless you don't mind spending the extra money and time (which would be rediculous to do no matter how wealthy your parents are).

The training quality is excellent at UND, but again, it wouldn't be worth it to continue with new ratings and certificates, then come to UND only to be required to do the ground school all over again.

[ScoutFlyer]

I don't think it is all that bad to come to UND with your private. As stated in the previous post, you will have to take private ground school over, along with a few flight lessons (14, I think) to make sure you are up to "UND Standards." You would be in the same ground school class with people who are starting fresh, however, you would have a different flight course outline. I'm not sure of the exact procedures in place for anything above a ppl, but I'm sure you will have to take the ground school portions over. I would contact the Student Services Office to ask for the exact information. I would think twice about coming here with more than a ppl, though. I know several people who have done it, and they are no further ahead, except for total time in their logbook. If you are serious about coming to UND, I would finish the private, and then wait on the instrument training to start it fresh at UND.

[JaceTheAce]

Originally Posted by ScoutFlyer

I don't think it is all that bad to come to UND with your private.

Right, because we all have an extra $6,525 to blow. Not bad at all.

Originally Posted by ScoutFlyer

As stated in the previous post, you will have to take private ground school over, along with a few flight lessons (14, I think) to make sure you are up to "UND Standards."

Cost breakdown:

-Tuition cost for a 5 credit course based on ND residency (which will be only slightly more since he's from MN): $2,524.99 (5/12 * $6,060... AVIT 102 is a 5 credit course divided by 12 credits multiplied by tuition, assuming he's full time)
-Approximate flight costs for 14 lessons: ±$4,000
Total: $6524.99, not including 8.5%-prime-plus-1%-interest rate expense he's having on an education loan assuming he or his cosigner has good credit and does indeed need financing.

In my opinion it is a COMPLETE waste of money and a sacrifice for precious education funding. For $6525 you can get your instrument rating AND commercial at a local FBO.

If you want to spend an extra $6500 or so then by all means... if not, don't come to UND with your Private.

[ScoutFlyer]

You make very valid points, I was only thinking in the terms of being ahead with classes that need to be taken. I didn't really think about it in regard to costs.

[Stinger]

As long as you just go to class and stay awake, you won't have any problems in the classes.

[TXaviator]

UND is a college?

I thought it was a zero-to-hero ATP factory for Asian airlines!!

[AngelFuree]

Originally Posted by TXaviator

I thought it was a zero-to-hero ATP factory for Asian airlines!!

Actually...it is.

[taildragger173]

Originally Posted by SY737

Just some background information. I am a 17 year old Minnesota resident, who is just entering his senior year in high school. I currently have around 42 hours, and am just about to take my checkride (just a matter of a review flight, then scheduling the checkride), also I will probably begin my instrument training right after I get the PPL. I've been looking at the University of North Dakota for the past few years, and it looks like a great place to get my college degree and pursue my dream of commercially flying. I hear that it is not a good idea to come to UND with previously earned licenses, but I cant just STOP my flight training, while being so close to finishing. What are the procedures for a student entering with an IFR rating as well? Is UND still a college I should be considering?


Thanks in Advance, Tony

Tony,
Many people (myself included) came to UND with their private pilot certificate. Once here you will be required to take the private pilot ground school AVIT102 and fly in the test course. The test course is 14 lessons which serves mostly as a review but you do learn the UND way of doing things. In that course there is only one solo lesson. Lesson 14 is the stage check which will probably be a more difficult version of the private pilot checkride.

After you finish your private pilot's license I'd stop there if you're planning on comming up to UND. UND does offer test courses for those with their instrument and commercial certificates however they do almost all of the lessons required in the instrument/commercial course. You'd be better off starting your instrument/commercial training at UND and working through their program.

As far as the cost issue which Jace brings up, either way you'll end up spending money. If as others mentioned you stop your training now, you'll still have to complete the test course and take a part 61 checkride. If you're almost done with your private, finish that.

In order to get credit for your courses you must complete them at UND. That is why you have to take the private pilot test course, and why you have to do the other courses. You can have all of the certificates you want but at the end of the day, if you want college credit for those classes you must do the work. The flight credits are not transferable with the exception of comming from a UND Flight Training Center. I've heard of a few rare cases where someone comes in with their private from an approved FAA part 141 ground school and has been able to bypass AVIT102. That is rare though.

I hope that I answered some of your questions.

[UAL747400]

I would suggest stopping where you are right now. I came here with my private and had to do the "test course". While I can see the reasoning behind it, it was a pretty big waste of time and money for me. Other than getting the flight time I guess.

I too am not familiar with how UND handles students that come in with anything beyond a PPL, but I can imagine they make you take the ground school and a test course of everything.

[JaceTheAce]

Originally Posted by UAL747400

I would suggest stopping where you are right now. I came here with my private and had to do the "test course". While I can see the reasoning behind it, it was a pretty big waste of time and money for me. Other than getting the flight time I guess.

I too am not familiar with how UND handles students that come in with anything beyond a PPL, but I can imagine they make you take the ground school and a test course of everything.

"But you'll have that UND education that the airlines only want!"

Remember folks, those little trashy mom-and-pop FBOs with the tin can 1968 Cessna 150s are inferior and offer the worst quality flight training ever!

[UAL747400]

Originally Posted by JaceTheAce

"But you'll have that UND education that the airlines only want!"

Remember folks, those little trashy mom-and-pop FBOs with the tin can 1968 Cessna 150s are inferior and offer the worst quality flight training ever!

My hardest checkride by far was my private checkride with a DE. It wasn't because the guy was a hardass or anything. He just had me go over the harder stuff out of the tasks in the PTS. It's possible to get the same deal hear *cough* Greg Smith *cough*, but it seems a majority are not very hard.

My CFI ride was probably one of the easiest checkrides I've had yet.

[ChadW346]

Originally Posted by JaceTheAce

"But you'll have that UND education that the airlines only want!"

Remember folks, those little trashy mom-and-pop FBOs with the tin can 1968 Cessna 150s are inferior and offer the worst quality flight training ever!

Well, I know you're being sarcastic, but the attitude here isn't really one of "Oh we give you the cutting edge nobody else can give you" for say. Yes I am over-simplifying it a little, but after attending another flight school previously to here, the difference is like night and day. Is the UND type of environment for everyone? Probably not. Even I admit that sometimes the ultra-structured-ness can take some fun out of things, but I love how everything is really as straight forward as it can possibly be, and the responsibility to achieve is placed more squarely on each student, rather than being dependent on other variables (I'm leaving weather out of it, for this argument) that a student may not necessarily be able to control. I dunno, this is just based on my experience here so far, and it could probably be slightly to drastically different for other people. Just wanted to add my insight, though.

[BA202]

When I came to UND last year I had already completed my PPL, IR, and COM SEL. During my first semester at UND I had to take both of the IR ground schools, and test flight courses for the IR and COM license. Consisting of about 35 total lessons between the two and two stage checks. The following semester I took both of the commercial ground schools along with the Multi-engine course, and did the Multi flight course. In the end everything worked out well, but there was alot of extra paperwork and excess petitions and crap like that to fill out and alot of waiting to see what the "board" would say regaurding my situation. If you get a brochure packet from UND it will have the "Flight Course Policy" and that should tell you exactly what will happen with each cert you have and want to transfer in. I work for the aerospace department so I have seen my fair share of these cases. Also I think it is good to get your private at least somewhere outside of UND so you are not a machine like some of the students here who have never flown outside of the UND bubble.

[TXaviator]

Originally Posted by BA202

Also I think it is good to get your private at least somewhere outside of UND so you are not a machine like some of the students here who have never flown outside of the UND bubble.

dear god yes.

i am amazed with the automatons who have graduated UND but never ONCE flown a non UND aircraft or in a situation outside of UND training.

hopeless.

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[Micaoct]

What's considered the UND bubble? How far out would you have to go to be out of the bubble? I mean you have to do XC's, so if you go 200nm out or so wouldn't you be outside the bubble?

Edit: I see what you mean, so actually flying a non-UND aircraft too.

[BuickCFI]

Originally Posted by Micaoct

What's considered the UND bubble? How far out would you have to go to be out of the bubble? I mean you have to do XC's, so if you go 200nm out or so wouldn't you be outside the bubble?

Edit: I see what you mean, so actually flying a non-UND aircraft too.

across the road to GFKFS would put you out of the bubble and let you experience real world part 91 flying. 35 miles down the road (hwy 2) you could also experience it at KCKN

[JaceTheAce]

Originally Posted by BuickCFI

across the road to GFKFS would put you out of the bubble and let you experience real world part 91 flying. 35 miles down the road (hwy 2) you could also experience it at KCKN

[juxtapilot]

Originally Posted by Micaoct

What's considered the UND bubble? How far out would you have to go to be out of the bubble? I mean you have to do XC's, so if you go 200nm out or so wouldn't you be outside the bubble?

Edit: I see what you mean, so actually flying a non-UND aircraft too.

I think when people refer to the "UND Bubble" they are talking about the procedures and rules etc.. that make oneself feel really safe and secure. For instance like they have said, renting a plane elsewhere and doing things that aren't scheduled in a 141 curriculum would definatly get you away from the confort zone. Next summer you could get checked out in 1970's Piper Cherokee, and fly wherever you want... w/o GPS. That would be quite an experience if you have only flown UND's new planes. I think if you train anywhere (forever) you would be in that place's "bubble."

[StrangerDejaVu]

There are a couple bubbles, from what I've found. There's the weather bubble where GFK is reporting the ceiling a vis you need to go fly, but RDR and CKN are both terrible. Then there's the flight bubble, which I'd say extends all the way to the outer reaches of Minneapolis Center, where nobody knows about us. All the local controllers know that we're training so they bend a little more to help us out (plus we know all the local procedures). But get yourself out to chicago or denver center, and that little safety net of 'everyone getting along' isn't so prevalent, even if we're in a UND aircraft. I think one of the best things you can do as a student is combine your XC with a friends and get out somewhere far with busy airspace - not only does it give you a real-world lesson for XC flying, but will introduce you to procedures at unfamiliar airports.

[JaceTheAce]

Originally Posted by juxtapilot

I think when people refer to the "UND Bubble" they are talking about the procedures and rules etc.. that make oneself feel really safe and secure. For instance like they have said, renting a plane elsewhere and doing things that aren't scheduled in a 141 curriculum would definatly get you away from the confort zone. Next summer you could get checked out in 1970's Piper Cherokee, and fly wherever you want... w/o GPS. That would be quite an experience if you have only flown UND's new planes. I think if you train anywhere (forever) you would be in that place's "bubble."

When we refer to the "bubble" we are referring to a training system that feeds fear into students thinking outside the box. We are so involved with such a structured training environment that when we go to ATC systems outside the UND "bubble" we are faced with controllers that get very annoyed by our robotic, lengthy and unnecessary radio mumbo jumbo. The whole mentality of an over-structured safety program has its own advantages and disadvantages. As an example, the completely excessive emergency checklist items that you see on UND's Engine Failure Takeoff Continued for the Seminole has too many "do" items that involve flying the airplane. One should NEVER be focusing on individual items that require pertinent and immediate control responses to an engine failure on a twin. You should just be trained to react to it without distractions from a cluttered checklist. Those items have no business being there.

I've found my father (ATP and old-time CFI) correcting my radio calls often for the excessive radio chatter that, as I found on my recent long IFR cross-country in the Duchess, annoys the hell out of controllers. They'll yell at you - no compassion given in this area. I've learned a lot from just the 6.2 hours I have in the Duchess flying around in the SoCal area.

I think the best thing for any UND student is to rent an airplane where they're from - it'll really open up your eyes!

[Snickersnwa]

Originally Posted by JaceTheAce

I think the best thing for any UND student is to rent an airplane where they're from - it'll really open up your eyes!

I don't think that it applies only to UND students. If you train specifically to one area I'd encourage you to go out an experience flying in as many different places you can.

[JaceTheAce]

Originally Posted by Snickersnwa

I don't think that it applies only to UND students. If you train specifically to one area I'd encourage you to go out an experience flying in as many different places you can.

I completely agree.

[TXaviator]

oh happy day! we all agree on something!!

[BuickCFI]

he completely excessive emergency checklist items that you see on UND's Engine Failure Takeoff Continued for the Seminole has too many "do" items that involve flying the airplane.

I would agree BUT the POH says the same thing