Incompetence

[Dj To Rule]

So.. I'm having trouble with procedural instructors. (mainly new hires)

And got a XC incomplete and he tells me the arc is 0.5 each side.. last time I checked the pts said +-1

I get ticked off with little personal procedures and the way they are taught.
To further enforce these retarded imbred procedures they use negative and threatening statements like:
"don't do that because they will get mad, or they don't want us to do that, etc."
Who is they? Some SOF guy at the desk gonna unleash his fury for working overtime? Why put fear into your students and hammer dumb procedures, I'm not buying that.

Here is an example of an imbred procedure..

Taxi in the dark.

Who in the right mind would drive with their headlights off? On the ramp you have lighting so it's justifyable to have them off, but if I am in a dark taxi way, I'd keep my recog lights on! AND NO the moonlight obscured by clouds is NOT enough to see details like a stupid pothole or something to ingest into the prop.

"Oh but the other guy is gonna get blinded"

During taxi my greatest concern was the guy a mile away!
Plus it's worse not knowing there was a plane out in the dark when suddenly an unexpected burst of bright lights shines in your face, congrats you just blinded the guy anyway.

Also it is recommended to avoid flicking HID landing lights on and off because it's harmful to the bulb, and not because 'they will get mad'.

Inform the student of detail, let them make the decision so they can learn. Simply threatening them to follow a procedure does not teach them anything. Unfortunately this is how training is at UND, most seen by new hires.

My two cents

[Dugie8]

While agree with your points, this comes from the 18-20 year old crowd that knows everything and won't listen to "instruction".

This is a top down thing, if you ever have the "privelage" of sitting in on one of the flight instructor meetings, you would here:

"We are watching you..."
"Don't do this because...."
"These things mak 'us' upset...."

etc.

The taxi light thing, that has been going on for years, leave it on if you feel the need (landing light I guess it is), if your CFI won't let you, he or she taxis, if someone gripes at you for leaving it on while solo, go straight to SIEW with a filled out safety report stating someone was asking you to operate in an "unsafe" manner. But for gods sake, don't be the guy holding perpindicular to the runway with all the lights on as some poor schmo comes across the threshold.

The arc is 4 miles either side, 1 mile is a PTS standard.


You guys are you own worst enemies here, plenty of people read this stuff, ie lurk, and are sick of the attitudes being thrown around, such is the life in aviation. Try the same stuff during any groundschool program (ie pissing and moaning about locale, instructors, etc) and watch how pleasant your training becomes (I have seen this first hand, it ain't pretty). You are the paying customer for sure, but you still have to play by the rules, but you also have a "chain of command" to follow when those rules are not being applied correctly, coming on here to complain isn't a link in that chain.

[TheShocker]

I forgot to put military time and used Zulu time on the XC Dual Request form once and the big bad SOF threw a stiff about it. He wouldn't give me the airplane until I changed it, I asked him, "I am sorry but can you not subtract 5?" Customer service at its best!

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by TheShocker

I forgot to put military time and used Zulu time on the XC Dual Request form once and the big bad SOF threw a stiff about it. He wouldn't give me the airplane until I changed it, I asked him, "I am sorry but can you not subtract 5?" Customer service at its best!

explain to me the difference between military time and zulu time?

[TheShocker]

Originally Posted by Dugie8

explain to me the difference between military time and zulu time?

Military Time - 5PM = 1700
Zulu Time - 5PM = 2200Z

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by TheShocker

Military Time - 5PM = 1700
Zulu Time - 5PM = 2200Z

So, military time only applies in the Central Time Zone?










Seriously, not th SOF's job to decipher what time you are going to be back, etc. Does the Stan. Manual have a say which way the time should be recored on the flight logs and such, I do not recall.

[UAL747400]

Originally Posted by Dj To Rule

Here is an example of an imbred procedure..

Taxi in the dark.

Who in the right mind would drive with their headlights off? On the ramp you have lighting so it's justifyable to have them off, but if I am in a dark taxi way, I'd keep my recog lights on! AND NO the moonlight obscured by clouds is NOT enough to see details like a stupid pothole or something to ingest into the prop.

"Oh but the other guy is gonna get blinded"

During taxi my greatest concern was the guy a mile away!
Plus it's worse not knowing there was a plane out in the dark when suddenly an unexpected burst of bright lights shines in your face, congrats you just blinded the guy anyway.

Also it is recommended to avoid flicking HID landing lights on and off because it's harmful to the bulb, and not because 'they will get mad'.

Inform the student of detail, let them make the decision so they can learn. Simply threatening them to follow a procedure does not teach them anything. Unfortunately this is how training is at UND, most seen by new hires.

My two cents

This is something I seem to debate with every new instructor I get. Except one that got his training outside of UND(coincendence?). We always discuss it and determine which is best and it has always worked out alright. It usually ends up being a compromise where I am allowed to use it on the dark ends of the 35s. Now, if you've got a long line of airplanes in front of you, then I don't see the need to taxi with the landing light on. Also, honestly, I find the runway lights just as blinding as a landing light. Your night vision is done for anyway the second you even look at any of those lights on short final. I can see the landing light in my perifrial(spelling? ) vision and can see that it's there, so I don't look directly at it.

The only time I've ever really gotten into an argument about the landing light thing was when I flicked it on and left it on until it "booted up". I know they're HIDs and understand their operation and it is a HUGE no no to flick them on and off. The bulbs don'e like it and the ballasts HATE it. My instructor who was obviously completely ignorant to HID operation had a hissy fit. Must have had a long day or something. I've never been so strongly lectured about something so stupid, of which the person doing the lecturing was entirely in the wrong, in my entire life. haha

[UAL747400]

Originally Posted by Dugie8

So, military time only applies in the Central Time Zone?










Seriously, not th SOF's job to decipher what time you are going to be back, etc. Does the Stan. Manual have a say which way the time should be recored on the flight logs and such, I do not recall.

Military time is just simply the 24 hour clock, is it not? So therefore, would still go with the time zones, right?

I've had a long day already and might just be misunderstanding you.

[TheShocker]

Originally Posted by Dugie8

So, military time only applies in the Central Time Zone?










Seriously, not th SOF's job to decipher what time you are going to be back, etc. Does the Stan. Manual have a say which way the time should be recored on the flight logs and such, I do not recall.

Well on the request form it has "ETD (Military Time) and ETA (Military Time)!" "Local Time" on there would have been nice ! The point is though, instead of giving me a friendly heads up he refused to accept the request form.

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by UAL747400

Military time is just simply the 24 hour clock, is it not? So therefore, would still go with the time zones, right?

I've had a long day already and might just be misunderstanding you.

I'm just making a funny. He was trying to be smart and show how he could do things in Zulu time and "military time" where militarty time is just the 24 hour clock, where zulu is just a time zone, a common "reference" time.

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by TheShocker

Well on the request form it has "ETD (Military Time) and ETA (Military Time)!" "Local Time" on there would have been nice ! The point is though, instead of giving me a friendly heads up he refused to accept the request form.

Well, you didn't fill it out right, why should he/she accept it? Would you not agree that precise "time" is an important aspect of this "job"?


I thought the Stan Manual had something about flight logs and such being done in local time, just to keep the confusion down, not so much for night flights but for day time flights. IE, a slip gets knocked on the floor, "Was this guy gonna be back at 1 pm or 6 pm?" When do you start looking for someone?

[UAL747400]

Originally Posted by Dugie8

I'm just making a funny. He was trying to be smart and show how he could do things in Zulu time and "military time" where militarty time is just the 24 hour clock, where zulu is just a time zone, a common "reference" time.

Yeah, I've been up since 4 and have the rest of the day to finish up all this "fun" stuff. My sarcasm/humor meter is broken today.

[TheShocker]

Originally Posted by Dugie8

Well, you didn't fill it out right, why should he/she accept it? Would you not agree that precise "time" is an important aspect of this "job"?


I thought the Stan Manual had something about flight logs and such being done in local time, just to keep the confusion down, not so much for night flights but for day time flights. IE, a slip gets knocked on the floor, "Was this guy gonna be back at 1 pm or 6 pm?" When do you start looking for someone?

Well it was a misunderstanding on my part yes, but you are getting picky with the precise time. We use UTC time in aviation for being precise and hopefully leading to no confusion the last time I checked. I can see no reason why writing UTC time is somehow not precise.

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by TheShocker

Well it was a misunderstanding on my part yes, but you are getting picky with the precise time. We use UTC time in aviation for being precise and hopefully leading to no confusion the last time I checked. I can see no reason why writing UTC time is somehow not precise.

Not everyplace use UTC, Piedmont, and I would guess most regionals, don't. ATI did, but we did flights all over the world, so everyone being on the same page, to speak, is a good thing. That is all it is, you really can't have half the students using local time and the other half using UTC and expect everything to run smoothly.

[JaceTheAce]

Originally Posted by Dj To Rule

Also it is recommended to avoid flicking HID landing lights on and off because it's harmful to the bulb, and not because 'they will get mad'.

The myth of having to keep landing lights off while taxiing because they'd "get too hot" stemmed from back when the Warriors/Cadets had Halogen lights that WOULD burn up without airflow over them. We have HIDs now that produce very little heat - leaving them on won't harm anything.

[TheShocker]

Originally Posted by Dugie8

Not everyplace use UTC, Piedmont, and I would guess most regionals, don't. ATI did, but we did flights all over the world, so everyone being on the same page, to speak, is a good thing. That is all it is, you really can't have half the students using local time and the other half using UTC and expect everything to run smoothly.

Well it was a hectic day before the airport, got confusing filing 3 flight plans in Zulu time, getting a weather briefing in Zulu time, then filling out a cross country request form in Local Military Time. I was hoping the SOF would let it slide and be somewhat understanding, as I think any rational human being would be.

[staplegun]

Originally Posted by JaceTheAce

The myth of having to keep landing lights off while taxiing because they'd "get too hot" stemmed from back when the Warriors/Cadets had Halogen lights that WOULD burn up. We have HIDs now that produce very little hit - leaving them on won't harm anything.

Ah yes, ancestor worship at its finest...

Kevin

[UAL747400]

Originally Posted by JaceTheAce

The myth of having to keep landing lights off while taxiing because they'd "get too hot" stemmed from back when the Warriors/Cadets had Halogen lights that WOULD burn up without airflow over them. We have HIDs now that produce very little heat - leaving them on won't harm anything.

Exactly. It's my understanding that you're causing havoc to the starter and ballast when you flick HIDs on and off right?

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by TheShocker

Well it was a hectic day before the airport, got confusing filing 3 flight plans in Zulu time, getting a weather briefing in Zulu time, then filling out a cross country request form in Local Military Time. I was hoping the SOF would let it slide and be somewhat understanding, as I think any rational human being would be.

I completely understand, you would laugh your arse off at the number of flight plans I have to rerun because I can't add 5 to local time to get the right zulu time. However, that doesn't mean flight service customer service "sucks" because I can't follow directions sometimes.

[JaceTheAce]

Originally Posted by Dugie8

I

[TheShocker]

Originally Posted by Dugie8

I completely understand, you would laugh your arse off at the number of flight plans I have to rerun because I can't add 5 to local time to get the right zulu time. However, that doesn't mean flight service customer service "sucks" because I can't follow directions sometimes.

Well I viewed it from my perspective, if I was SOF, not that I would want to be, I would have did the adjustment and advise said student that Zulu time is not the correct procedure for next time. Guess everyone is different

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by TheShocker

Well I viewed it from my perspective, if I was SOF, not that I would want to be, I would have did the adjustment and advise said student that Zulu time is not correct procedure for next time. Guess everyone is different

That's cool and a good way to do things, but take it from the SOFs view, would you say a majority of the dealings that the SOF has with students is one of "competence" on the students part?

[TheShocker]

Originally Posted by Dugie8

That's cool and a good way to do things, but take it from the SOFs view, would you say a majority of the dealings that the SOF has with students is one of "competence" on the students part?

I am not quite sure if I get what you are asking, but from my perspective student/SOF interaction are pretty mundane. I know if there is an emergency competency of the student might come into play. "Hey SOF, my engine quit", "Uh did you switch fuel tanks?", "Ooops!" So far though, they are just a facilitator through which I get my aircraft, give them a call when I am 30 minutes out or late. Not any hard stuff that question the competency of students.

[Dugie8]

When I SOFed, I tried to make the students make the decion(s), ie not updating the current flight status thingy, but my god, it would be 500 OVC, wind howling at 35+ knots and I would still get students wanting to go to practice area C. It gets very frustrating after a while of having to play dad to people when all they have to do is open up the Stan manual or use an ounce of judgement and there would be no problem. So maybe the SOF had just had his or her fill of stuff for the day, and you just happen to get the brunt of the frustration.

[TheShocker]

Originally Posted by Dugie8

When I SOFed, I tried to make the students make the decion(s), ie not updating the current flight status thingy, but my god, it would be 500 OVC, wind howling at 35+ knots and I would still get students wanting to go to practice area C. It gets very frustrating after a while of having to play dad to people when all they have to do is open up the Stan manual or use an ounce of judgement and there would be no problem. So maybe the SOF had just had his or her fill of stuff for the day, and you just happen to get the brunt of the frustration.

Well yeah, dealing with folks like that will wear your patience thin. As for SOFs, I think a pay increase would boost morale. Last I heard SOF pay was a little on the low side.