Instructor Fired?

[AngelFuree]

Rumor or not, I can see it definitely being real, but I learned from a UND flight instructor that a certain individual flight instructor was fired. The reason was he would actually fail the engine in air by pulling the keys from the ignition. If such is the case, I'm extremely happy he got fired. That is unacceptable...and for the record, I had a bad experience with this instructor in another stage. Another UND JC member had a bad experience with his stage for 222 for asking very trivial information, as well; name withheld.

[ZUKO]

Ouch. That is pretty stupid. What is actually shutting down the engine mid flight going to accomplish when you could just put the throttle to idle and act like it quit. I mean sure, you will actually go through your memory items by actually doing them but that would scare me to death.

Originally Posted by AngelFuree

Rumor or not, I can see it definitely being real, but I learned from a UND flight instructor that a certain individual flight instructor was fired. The reason was he would actually fail the engine in air by pulling the keys from the ignition. If such is the case, I'm extremely happy he got fired. That is unacceptable...and for the record, I had a bad experience with this instructor in another stage. Another UND JC member had a bad experience with his stage for 222 for asking very trivial information, as well; name withheld.

[UAL747400]

Originally Posted by AngelFuree

Rumor or not, I can see it definitely being real, but I learned from a UND flight instructor that a certain individual flight instructor was fired. The reason was he would actually fail the engine in air by pulling the keys from the ignition. If such is the case, I'm extremely happy he got fired. That is unacceptable...and for the record, I had a bad experience with this instructor in another stage. Another UND JC member had a bad experience with his stage for 222 for asking very trivial information, as well; name withheld.

Empty your PM inbox! Send me a PM. I pretty sure I know who you're talking about because I heard the same thing. Apparently it was while he was in the seminoles. He would be running late or have to go to the bathroom, so he would shut an engine down and declare an emergency to get in quicker. His excuse would then be that something wasn't reading or sounding right, so he did a "precautionary shutdown".

[UAL747400]

Originally Posted by ZUKO

Ouch. That is pretty stupid. What is actually shutting down the engine mid flight going to accomplish when you could just put the throttle to idle and act like it quit. I mean sure, you will actually go through your memory items by actually doing them but that would scare me to death.

It was while he would be flying a seminole. I never heard from anyone that he was doing it in single engine airplanes. YIKES!

[ZUKO]

Originally Posted by UAL747400

It was while he would be flying a seminole. I never heard from anyone that he was doing it in single engine airplanes. YIKES!

okay whew. Hmm.. Thats kind of interesting. So would he land with only one engine?

I am surprised because its hard to believe someone would go through that much work if he was late etc.

[Screaming_Emu]

anybody care to PM me the name? I'm curious :-P

[the_dmn8tr]

Originally Posted by Screaming_Emu

anybody care to PM me the name? I'm curious :-P

I too am curious, he sounds so familiar

[excessthrust]

Apparently the situation was the instructor was caught in a he said/she said thing. There was concern that was brought to attention and later put to rest as the situation was not as it was first portrayed. The instructor actually got a job and resigned for what sounded like a much better paying field... (I wish I would find one of those...or have known I'd never make any money in aviation after taking on so many loans!!!). Let's not start another rumor mill and try to drag innocent people into tarnished heresay...

"shut an engine down and declare an emergency to get in quicker. His excuse would then be that something wasn't reading or sounding right, so he did a "precautionary shutdown". "

That airplane was in MX for a about month we were told in our MEI class. The propeller hub was cracked and leaking oil...it was even a brand new engine. We went into the MX hangar for a systems class and you should have seen the crack in the hub!!! I think that guy also had an actual engine failure in an Arrow that the fuel line didn't get installed correctly on a phase. I guess the engine actually stopped in flight and he made it to Grafton or Warren or something...

[UAL747400]

Originally Posted by excessthrust

Apparently the situation was the instructor was caught in a he said/she said thing. There was concern that was brought to attention and later put to rest as the situation was not as it was first portrayed. The instructor actually got a job and resigned for what sounded like a much better paying field... (I wish I would find one of those...or have known I'd never make any money in aviation after taking on so many loans!!!). Let's not start another rumor mill and try to drag innocent people into tarnished heresay...

"shut an engine down and declare an emergency to get in quicker. His excuse would then be that something wasn't reading or sounding right, so he did a "precautionary shutdown". "

That airplane was in MX for a about month we were told in our MEI class. The propeller hub was cracked and leaking oil...it was even a brand new engine. We went into the MX hangar for a systems class and you should have seen the crack in the hub!!! I think that guy also had an actual engine failure in an Arrow that the fuel line didn't get installed correctly on a phase. I guess the engine actually stopped in flight and he made it to Grafton or Warren or something...

I hope you're right. I hate when crap like that gets started. I guess I'm not making it any better by continuing to spread it though.

[excessthrust]

Thanks for putting on a good head for stuff like this. I hate to see someone affected by things we say that we think or heard. It could be us one day, you know?

[AngelFuree]

Originally Posted by excessthrust

Let's not start another rumor mill and try to drag innocent people into tarnished heresay...

Notice my original post states "rumor or not..."
Nowhere in my post did I say it was 100% certain nor did I provide the guy's name.
Furthermore, the guy is far from innocent, forgive me if you had good ties with him, it's the truth. I'm not the only one who complained about him.

[excessthrust]

I never said the guy was necessarily innocent or guilty, as I wasn't part of the situation. I just know there's always 2 sides to every story. 1 from those involved and another from those who 'heard what happened'. I knew the guy from class and from people that worked with him. Apparently he wasn't one to do the "inbred" UND routines, and tried to use more part 61 and 91 real world stuff instead of what he was taught from his instructor and that guy's instructor and that guy's instructor.... leading back to Odegard himself probably. New thoughts and ideas probably are a good thing once every decade...

Leave the guy be if you don't exactly know what happened. And if you or other guys had bad experiences with the guy on a checkride, revisit your ideas if you ever get on the other side of the table when you're asking the questions and trying to evaluate 10-15 students a week (right before finals) on the basis of one oral and one flight...it ain't easy, especially when you start doing it for people more experienced than you and you're doing it in a jet.

Most checkrides at UND are a joke anyway because the stage pilots think of it as another lesson and pass you as long as you don't kill them. PTS standards are PTS standards and there is no "UND 3 strike rule" in the real world. When I was there there were only a handful of guys that did their checks to hardcore PTS standards and I always tried to get myself and my students with those guys. Better standards means better pilots. Trying to keep a company's pass rate to 80% to keep examining authority (Like UND has to) only makes you a pilot factory. Just think if UND were unable to give final certificate checkrides...all checks would have to be done with the Fargo FAA or one of the 4 DPE's in GFK.... that would most certainly slow down the training and make the school lose students and thus money wouldn't it? The school's gotta make money, and therefore has a balancing act of standards vs. ethics vs. economics. You know $$$ wins every battle...

So you got a real world checkride, deal with it. It'll make you better in the long run, if only to see how you would or would not do things if you were in the situation.

[UAL747400]

Originally Posted by excessthrust

Most checkrides at UND are a joke anyway because the stage pilots think of it as another lesson and pass you as long as you don't kill them. PTS standards are PTS standards and there is no "UND 3 strike rule" in the real world. When I was there there were only a handful of guys that did their checks to hardcore PTS standards and I always tried to get myself and my students with those guys. Better standards means better pilots. Trying to keep a company's pass rate to 80% to keep examining authority (Like UND has to) only makes you a pilot factory. Just think if UND were unable to give final certificate checkrides...all checks would have to be done with the Fargo FAA or one of the 4 DPE's in GFK.... that would most certainly slow down the training and make the school lose students and thus money wouldn't it? The school's gotta make money, and therefore has a balancing act of standards vs. ethics vs. economics. You know $$$ wins every battle...

Problem is, is that the checkride should still have the same feel as a normal lesson. Most guys that try to be "hardcore" make it very uncomfortable. Leads are the only instructors that can do this well from my experiance. I haven't had a stage with a regular instructor yet that I learned anything from during the stage check. They get this arrogant "haha, I know something you don't" attitude when they find something wrong. I couldn't really care less what the pressure in the strut is when at the proper ride height. Yes, I was asked what the normal ride height is in the warrior, which I got right. Then was asked what the pressure is inside the strut at this height. I just said "uh, who cares?". He didn't like that so much. I usually like to learn little trivial things like that, but it has no business being asked in a stage check. If they ask this stuff and you don't know and they move on right away, it doesn't hurt anything. But when they dwell on it for like 15 minutes just to show you that they think they're more knowlegable than you, it makes the rest of the stage check terribly uncomfortable.

I've only had two stage checks that weren't with leads or higher. So I know I'm speaking in generalities too much. I probably just got 2 of the guys that think they're gods gift to aviation because they got hired at UND.

[excessthrust]

I have to highly doubt that that question ever got asked since that instructor and I had that very same conversation when we were in 325. We got asked that question in groundschool and our response was "it doesn't matter". If an airplane with oleo-type struts has any uneven weight put upon it, the struts will not necessarily go back to their previous condition, and therefore the inflation most likely will not meet spec. Example, in a Arrow when you exit the aircraft, and you step on the gear-up indicator - the step behind the flaps- the main struts will compress and the nose will extend. You'd have to lift the wing from underneath to re-extend the main struts and let them relax to see normal static load. The question was likely more to see if you knew where to find specs like these in the POH which is Aircraft operating handbook knowledge - required on every checkride I've ever taken Private through ATP.

From the people I knew at UND there that came off like they thought they had an attitude, for the most part, they had a right to be that way. Either they had a significant amount of experience over everyone else, were honestly just that much smarter and could remember and regurgitate insane amounts of information, had fantastic student pass rates and completion rates, or had put through very large numbers of students-see the first thing. Once you realized that and got to know those people you understood they knew their stuff and were good people to know. I've even called few of them to help me understand things I don't comprehend or have forgotten...

By the way, from what I've heard has gone on at UND, a few of the leads hired in the past few years have been less than the best instructors. In reality you can make more money as a normal line instructor than you would as a lead...potentially 50% more. There are a few instructors that aren't leads that would make good ones and would be more experienced and qualified than the ones that are currently in those positions. Why don't they try? 1. Income. 2. They aren't in the 'drinking buddies' club with the others. 3. They don't want to deal with the political crap that comes from the position. That's why I and many others never bothered applying for those positions and left when we could to take our career to the next level. I've also heard they hired new leads and course managers and picked people with less experience, but those people were in the "club" and were more likely to partake in the groupthink that is necessary to run things in the cycles that UND goes through. Ask a former UND instructor about the "boy's club"...they'll know what you mean.

Being a lead or higher means nothing at UND it seems lately. It only means you get to be on the softball team or go to the hockey parties. It definitely doesn't necessarily mean you're a better instructor or manager. Sorry to the Management that are just good people, doing a good job, that worked hard to get where you are without falling victim to 'the man' and got there based on your credentials.

[AngelFuree]

Originally Posted by excessthrust

I never said the guy was necessarily innocent or guilty, as I wasn't part of the situation. I just know there's always 2 sides to every story. 1 from those involved and another from those who 'heard what happened'. I knew the guy from class and from people that worked with him. Apparently he wasn't one to do the "inbred" UND routines, and tried to use more part 61 and 91 real world stuff instead of what he was taught from his instructor and that guy's instructor and that guy's instructor.... leading back to Odegard himself probably. New thoughts and ideas probably are a good thing once every decade...

Leave the guy be if you don't exactly know what happened. And if you or other guys had bad experiences with the guy on a checkride, revisit your ideas if you ever get on the other side of the table when you're asking the questions and trying to evaluate 10-15 students a week (right before finals) on the basis of one oral and one flight...it ain't easy, especially when you start doing it for people more experienced than you and you're doing it in a jet.

Most checkrides at UND are a joke anyway because the stage pilots think of it as another lesson and pass you as long as you don't kill them. PTS standards are PTS standards and there is no "UND 3 strike rule" in the real world. When I was there there were only a handful of guys that did their checks to hardcore PTS standards and I always tried to get myself and my students with those guys. Better standards means better pilots. Trying to keep a company's pass rate to 80% to keep examining authority (Like UND has to) only makes you a pilot factory. Just think if UND were unable to give final certificate checkrides...all checks would have to be done with the Fargo FAA or one of the 4 DPE's in GFK.... that would most certainly slow down the training and make the school lose students and thus money wouldn't it? The school's gotta make money, and therefore has a balancing act of standards vs. ethics vs. economics. You know $$$ wins every battle...

So you got a real world checkride, deal with it. It'll make you better in the long run, if only to see how you would or would not do things if you were in the situation.

Re: the bolded statement above, you completely wasted your time with this post by preaching to the choir. I'll throw it back at you and say you shouldn't try judging me without knowing what my issues were with the guy. Let's say it had nothing to do w/ personality conflicts nor did it have to do with standards, or even w/ failing the stage because I DID pass it on the first try. If you're really interested in knowing my issues, send me a PM but don't think that because he was your co-worker you knew exactly how he functioned. Your thinking is flawed.

[Doug Taylor]

To be really honest, unless it's fact, I wouldn't spread the person's name on the internet.

Technique only.

[AngelFuree]

Originally Posted by excessthrust

From the people I knew at UND there that came off like they thought they had an attitude, for the most part, they had a right to be that way. Either they had a significant amount of experience over everyone else, were honestly just that much smarter and could remember and regurgitate insane amounts of information,

None of what you mention warrants an instructor's condescending attitude. There aren't excuses.

[excessthrust]

The post wasn't aimed at you, but was a general statement to how the aviation community views UND. I was inside the 'bubble' once and took a totally different perspective once stepping outside. I'd be interested to hear your story if you want to send it my way. I'll give you an outside perspective.

[excessthrust]

Doug - out of curiosity, if names or conjecture were thrown out on this post and the parties involved disputed it or found it libelous, would the forum or the poster be responsible, and what would JC do? (not WWJD...different thing all together)

oh, by the way, i love the lamb chops puppet. My nephew used to watch that all the time when he was little

[UAL747400]

Originally Posted by excessthrust

I have to highly doubt that that question ever got asked since that instructor and I had that very same conversation when we were in 325. We got asked that question in groundschool and our response was "it doesn't matter". If an airplane with oleo-type struts has any uneven weight put upon it, the struts will not necessarily go back to their previous condition, and therefore the inflation most likely will not meet spec. Example, in a Arrow when you exit the aircraft, and you step on the gear-up indicator - the step behind the flaps- the main struts will compress and the nose will extend. You'd have to lift the wing from underneath to re-extend the main struts and let them relax to see normal static load. The question was likely more to see if you knew where to find specs like these in the POH which is Aircraft operating handbook knowledge - required on every checkride I've ever taken Private through ATP.

From the people I knew at UND there that came off like they thought they had an attitude, for the most part, they had a right to be that way. Either they had a significant amount of experience over everyone else, were honestly just that much smarter and could remember and regurgitate insane amounts of information, had fantastic student pass rates and completion rates, or had put through very large numbers of students-see the first thing. Once you realized that and got to know those people you understood they knew their stuff and were good people to know. I've even called few of them to help me understand things I don't comprehend or have forgotten...

By the way, from what I've heard has gone on at UND, a few of the leads hired in the past few years have been less than the best instructors. In reality you can make more money as a normal line instructor than you would as a lead...potentially 50% more. There are a few instructors that aren't leads that would make good ones and would be more experienced and qualified than the ones that are currently in those positions. Why don't they try? 1. Income. 2. They aren't in the 'drinking buddies' club with the others. 3. They don't want to deal with the political crap that comes from the position. That's why I and many others never bothered applying for those positions and left when we could to take our career to the next level. I've also heard they hired new leads and course managers and picked people with less experience, but those people were in the "club" and were more likely to partake in the groupthink that is necessary to run things in the cycles that UND goes through. Ask a former UND instructor about the "boy's club"...they'll know what you mean.

Being a lead or higher means nothing at UND it seems lately. It only means you get to be on the softball team or go to the hockey parties. It definitely doesn't necessarily mean you're a better instructor or manager. Sorry to the Management that are just good people, doing a good job, that worked hard to get where you are without falling victim to 'the man' and got there based on your credentials.

Well it was, and yes I mentioned that I would probably have to look in a maintenance manual to find out since it was so specific. It is indeed not in the POH, as it shouldn't be. That is a maintenance issue. He just had to get an attitude about it and spit out some numbers(that I later found were complete BS) to make sure that I knew that he knew something that I didn't know off the top of my head.

Just to clarify, I was talking about a different instructor than the one we were originally talking about in this thread.

As far as leads go, I haven't looked to see who has been hired. All the leads that I've had have been around more than 5 years.

What I said about the bad attitudes out there still stands. Knowing your stuff is no excuse to be a jerk about it.

[excessthrust]

Originally Posted by UAL747400

Just to clarify, I was talking about a different instructor than the one we were originally talking about in this thread.

That makes more sense then. I would only understand a question like that if the goal were to find out if the applicant knew where to find such an answer...(BTW strut inflation IS in the POH/AFM, usually in the systems section under landing gear-at least in the two I have at home - BE-400 and C90A.)

Can we let this thread die now and all the others complaining about checkrides/experiences with people in particular?

I'd be willing to bet most people who complain about their checkrides have unfortunately not done so well on more than one occasion and venting makes them feel better and justified. That or they often complain about a lot of things and checkrides are another thing on the list. Please, people, don't forget that the aviation community is a small world and things travel. Damn, I have that "It's a small world" song stuck in my head...

Let's move on to other things - The more you run over a dead cat the flatter it gets...

[JaceTheAce]

Let's just say I'm glad this guy is outta here because he gave me one hell of a Stage 46! But I passed it regardless. Gaud I disliked that guy. Me and along with every other instructor.

[excessthrust]

Jace - You've hinted before at his guy's name and now said he got fired. How do you know he did? You also said every instructor hated him - I find that hard to prove. Don't link info to speculation. That's called libel and there's a legal responsibility for that. You should hope that the guy accused in this thread never finds this site because there could be repercussions!

my .$02

[JaceTheAce]

Originally Posted by excessthrust

Jace - You've hinted before at his guy's name and now said he got fired. How do you know he did? You also said every instructor hated him - I find that hard to prove. Don't link info to speculation. That's called libel and there's a legal responsibility for that. You should hope that the guy accused in this thread never finds this site because there could be repercussions!

my .$02

I edited it to "outta here" instead of "fired" to make you happy.

Libel isn't libel until it's false information presented as true information.

[UAL747400]

Originally Posted by excessthrust

That makes more sense then. I would only understand a question like that if the goal were to find out if the applicant knew where to find such an answer...(BTW strut inflation IS in the POH/AFM, usually in the systems section under landing gear-at least in the two I have at home - BE-400 and C90A.)

Strut height is yes. The pressure to get said height, no(for the warrior, arrow and seminole). I don't even know if they use a pressure, or if they fill them until the get the specific height. I don't really care honestly.