Why UND doesn't log PIC time

[saxman66]

Alright, so I'm down in at Auburn as a CFI, and wondering about all that PIC time I should have logged at UND, but because the "airlines don't like that" we don't, whenever there's an instructor on board. We here at Auburn encourage giving our students PIC time (when they're rated in the aircraft of course), and I think the UND mentallity of not giving the students PIC time is total BS. So I think I'm going to put a post it in my logbook or make a "records correction" and add the PIC I should have gotten on a line in my logbook.

My fellow classmates have any insight to this? There's another UND guy here and we both agree. Most regionals are not going to say we shouldn't have logged PIC time on a dual flight. In fact they'd probably wonder why we didn't. This is why since CFII I've not added any my PIC time, thinking I might should add it later.

What do you think?

Chris

[Foxcow]

I wondered the same thing. All of my instructors at UND never had a good answer for me about that either. I went back and updated my PIC total in my logbook for all the time I could have logged as PIC. I encourage all of my students to log PIC if they can where I work now.


I went back and counted all the PIC that I should have logged and updated the colum on the latest page.

[Champcar]

Thats the dumbest thing I have heard. How does it "look bad"? If the FARs say you can log it then log it, or are the Airlines higher then the FAR's?

[Dugie8]

I logged every bit of my dual received (when I had the appropriate jiggabo) as PIC. Whoever is telling you this is full of it, just ask them how they do the MEI program and get the 5 hours of PIC for the Seminole.

[UAL747400]

Wow, I never would have thought to log PIC during dual flights. You'd only do this if you were type rated in the airplane though right? I think I too will go through with doing what you guys have done.

So did you just take your dual recieved and write it in as PIC in the PIC collum, or did you just totally up your dual and add that in on the PIC collum on the last page you're on?

[saxman66]

Originally Posted by UAL747400

Wow, I never would have thought to log PIC during dual flights. You'd only do this if you were type rated in the airplane though right? I think I too will go through with doing what you guys have done.

So did you just take your dual recieved and write it in as PIC in the PIC collum, or did you just totally up your dual and add that in on the PIC collum on the last page you're on?

Well it counts as dual received AND pic time. Just make sure you're rated in the aircraft. So 102 you can not log it unless you are solo. 325 you can't obviously either until you pass the stage. Pretty much all the other courses you can.

Originally Posted by Dugie8

I logged every bit of my dual received (when I had the appropriate jiggabo) as PIC. Whoever is telling you this is full of it, just ask them how they do the MEI program and get the 5 hours of PIC for the Seminole.

This is the one exception. I was in MEI so we had to log PIC during our flights. For some strange reason, my second MEI instructor would always give me 0.2 less PIC time than the actual flight was. WTF?? So a 1.4 Semi flight and he'd log it in my logbook as 1.1 pic. Weird.

Chris

[JaceTheAce]

Bottom line is, the FARs say you can do it. Log the PIC! I made a post in General Forums about 6 months ago about it.

[UAL747400]

Originally Posted by saxman66

Well it counts as dual received AND pic time. Just make sure you're rated in the aircraft. So 102 you can not log it unless you are solo. 325 you can't obviously either until you pass the stage. Pretty much all the other courses you can.

Yeah, I figured that. I didnt write my question very well either. What I meant was, are you guys updating every single page, or are you just updating the PIC collum on the last page you're on?

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by saxman66

This is the one exception. I was in MEI so we had to log PIC during our flights. For some strange reason, my second MEI instructor would always give me 0.2 less PIC time than the actual flight was. WTF?? So a 1.4 Semi flight and he'd log it in my logbook as 1.1 pic. Weird.

Chris

The idea behind that one is, since you are not an MEI and your instructor is (I know, duh) you wouldn't be ACTING PIC, so you can only log PIC for the time you manipulate the controls, since it is a training flight, you most likely didn't fly the entire time. So, for the sake of simplicity just log a tenth or two less than total flight time as PIC to cover that base.

[jtrain609]

This is about the craziest thing I've ever heard of.

Do they not ship the FAR's to Grand Forks?

[eglplt]

If you want to log the time as PIC in addition to dual received that is purely your choice, I know people who have logged it that way and most who have not. Where you will generally run into complications is the application process at most regional airlines. The airlines usually accompany their application packet with a flight time grid. The columns in the grid are set up so that your solo time + dual received + pic time = total time. If you log the time as both dual received and pic these columns will not add up correctly. You are then forced to make some sort of correction on the time grid or your logbook. If the interviewer sees that the numbers in your pic column on the grid don't match what is in the logbook it may cause question. Now, on the other hand I don't really think that it is a big deal in the type of airplanes you are flying. They usually don't get too excited about single engine Piper time being logged as both PIC and dual received. They do get excited about discrepancies in multiengine time and if you were logging PIC time in something like a Kingair or jet and it didn't add up! I myself also graduated from UND's flight program, so I know exactly what flight time you want to go back and count as PIC. You are only going to be able to log 221, 222, 323, 414, and 415. How much PIC time are you really going to gain by doing this? I don't think you would even exceed 150 hours at best. If you have 1300 hours of PIC time in bugsmashers how much will 1450 really help you or make a difference? These are just the points that I pondered while thinking about your question.

[Mr_Creepy]

my second MEI instructor would always give me 0.2 less PIC time than the actual flight was. WTF?? So a 1.4 Semi flight and he'd log it in my logbook as 1.1 pic. Weird.

Was he as good at math as you are?

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by Mr_Creepy

Was he as good at math as you are?

I see absolutely nothing wrong with the product of the two whole numbers he just provided.

[jtrain609]

So...the rest of the world logs PIC when they are recieving instruction when they are rated for the category and class, and they get hired at airlines all the time eh?

[saxman66]

Originally Posted by Mr_Creepy

Was he as good at math as you are?

haha, ok now i just feel stupid

Chris

[eglplt]

Originally Posted by John Herreshoff

So...the rest of the world logs PIC when they are recieving instruction when they are rated for the category and class, and they get hired at airlines all the time eh?

I am sure they do. My whole point was how valuable is it really? I don't think that PIC time while receiving dual in a single engine Piper is that valuable at all, especially the small amount of time he will gain in his logbook by doing this. Remember, it is about quality not necessarily quantity.

[Mr_Creepy]

Originally Posted by Dugie8

I see absolutely nothing wrong with the product of the two whole numbers he just provided.

Product! AHHH ok I get it.

[Blue Side Up]

will all that baklogged PIC time just cause you problems when you turn your logbook into records?

[Foxcow]

Originally Posted by UAL747400

Yeah, I figured that. I didnt write my question very well either. What I meant was, are you guys updating every single page, or are you just updating the PIC collum on the last page you're on?

I updated the latest colum that I was on and put a post it note with a reminder incase someone looks at my logbook and wonders why my PIC jumped 200 hours. Its easier too.

[saxman66]

Originally Posted by Blue Side Up

will all that baklogged PIC time just cause you problems when you turn your logbook into records?

No it shouldn't affect it at all

Originally Posted by eglplt

I am sure they do. My whole point was how valuable is it really? I don't think that PIC time while receiving dual in a single engine Piper is that valuable at all, especially the small amount of time he will gain in his logbook by doing this. Remember, it is about quality not necessarily quantity.

You may have a point as far as the airlines go, but other jobs I've seen may want to see say 500 PIC time while I've only logged say 320. I suppose many would be flexible on that, but some may not. Now when I get to have 2000 hours and I'm applying for a job, that 180 pic probably won't matter.

Chris

[Screaming_Emu]

eh, while legal, I still dont like it. Pilot in command is the person who is making the final decisions in the flight. Believe it or not, that is your instructor, not the student, regardless of what ratings you have.

[JaceTheAce]

Originally Posted by Screaming_Emu

eh, while legal, I still dont like it. Pilot in command is the person who is making the final decisions in the flight. Believe it or not, that is your instructor, not the student, regardless of what ratings you have.

Then who is the sole manipulator of the flight controls?

[eglplt]

Originally Posted by Screaming_Emu

eh, while legal, I still dont like it. Pilot in command is the person who is making the final decisions in the flight. Believe it or not, that is your instructor, not the student, regardless of what ratings you have.

This is a good point, here is another discussion I will throw out there. What is the definition of PIC as it is defined in CFR 14 Part 1? What is the definition of PIC as it is defined in CFR 14 Part 61? All employers out there are looking for PIC as defined in Part 1 when they list a PIC time requirement for a job. A few years ago UND revised their Policies and Procedures manual to identify the Certified Flight Instructor on board a training flight as the PIC defined by Part 1.

To parallel this argument from the real world. I am type rated in the airplane that I currently fly. The other pilot I am flying with is type rated as well. When it is my leg to fly, I don't log any of it as PIC, even though I am typed in the aircraft and I am the sole manipulator of the flight controls. According to Part 1, I am not the PIC, but according to Part 61 I am.

I am just trying to point out some arguments to get you guys thinking a little. You have to make the decision on how you want to log your flight time, but you also need to be able to back up your decision when the time comes. I personally choose to err on the side of conservative and have never had any problems. I have been through a few airline interviews and a couple fractional interviews as well, all resulted in a job offer at the end. At the regional airline level they generally will not scrutinize your logbook that much depending on the company. They are quite good at picking up glaring errors or "embellished" flight time! Keep in mind though, all regional airlines suck to work at and are not career type jobs. You will hopefully one day be interviewing for something bigger and better and the question may come up.

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by eglplt

This is a good point, here is another discussion I will throw out there. What is the definition of PIC as it is defined in CFR 14 Part 1? What is the definition of PIC as it is defined in CFR 14 Part 61? All employers out there are looking for PIC as defined in Part 1 when they list a PIC time requirement for a job. A few years ago UND revised their Policies and Procedures manual to identify the Certified Flight Instructor on board a training flight as the PIC defined by Part 1.

To parallel this argument from the real world. I am type rated in the airplane that I currently fly. The other pilot I am flying with is type rated as well. When it is my leg to fly, I don't log any of it as PIC, even though I am typed in the aircraft and I am the sole manipulator of the flight controls. According to Part 1, I am not the PIC, but according to Part 61 I am.

I am just trying to point out some arguments to get you guys thinking a little. You have to make the decision on how you want to log your flight time, but you also need to be able to back up your decision when the time comes. I personally choose to err on the side of conservative and have never had any problems. I have been through a few airline interviews and a couple fractional interviews as well, all resulted in a job offer at the end. At the regional airline level they generally will not scrutinize your logbook that much depending on the company. They are quite good at picking up glaring errors or "embellished" flight time! Keep in mind though, all regional airlines suck to work at and are not career type jobs. You will hopefully one day be interviewing for something bigger and better and the question may come up.

Blah, blah, blah

How you log the flight time is completely up to you, how you report it to an interview board is up to the board. If they only want to see PIC + SIC + DUAL REC. = TT then so be it. If they question you, which I doubt anyone would, a simple answer is all that is needed, "that is how I chose to log my flight time". You aren't being dishonest, puffing flight times, etc, you are logging what you are legally allowed to log.

In both of my airline interviews (not that many I know) my logbooks have never even been looked at, just my resume with total time and such and some questions.

There are more reasons to log PIC than just for interviews; insurance is one example, unless they specify part 1 definintions.

[Stone Cold]

Originally Posted by eglplt

I am sure they do. My whole point was how valuable is it really? I don't think that PIC time while receiving dual in a single engine Piper is that valuable at all, especially the small amount of time he will gain in his logbook by doing this. Remember, it is about quality not necessarily quantity.

Wasn't there a thread on here recently about some people being short of PIC time when it came time to upgrade? I think it mostly applied to the very low timers getting hired (Mesa, etc.), and Gulfstream, but I think we also had some people point out situations they had seen/heard about people having to go rent an airplane to get the remainder of PIC time.

Just some food for thought...myself personally, I log what I can legally log. If a company wants to see specific numbers of Part 1 PIC while in a Cessna above 2,000 AGL and on an IFR flight plan, without eating a sandwich, then if I want the job, I'll figure out a way to tell them the amount of time in those conditions. Otherwise, they're getting what I legally logged.

YMMV

TX