Passed the 46!!!

[JaceTheAce]

I passed both the oral and flight the first time. Things worked out for me in the end... I'll tell you why. I had a very excessively difficult stage pilot for the oral. The 222 stage 46 calls for approximately 1.0 hours for the oral. Most people seem to have been completing their 46 orals in 0.5 to 1.0 hours. Well, my 46 oral ended up being 2.0 hours. Two questions that were asked wasted about 45 minutes of that oral - one of the questions was pure trivia and not within the knowledge capacity of the average instrument pilot. The second one was more CFII material, according to a couple of instructors I spoke with. I don't know if it should've been asked, but you guys can judge for yourself. I am pretty refreshed on lost comm procedures, but this one just lost me.

Here's what they were:

1) You are cleared for an approach into, ie Fargo. After you were cleared for the approach and after you began the approach, you lose your radios. You do not have the necessary runway visuals to land so you go missed. Where is your clearance limit?

I answered "the missed approach point". But...basically ATC just wants your plane on the damn ground!

2) On NOS plates, why is the box around the tower frequency bolded?

So... I look in the index, legend, and every page in the approach plates for about 5 minutes. I give up. I thought that maybe it designated that the tower had "radar coverage" but that was not the case. The asterisk means that the tower is non-continuously operating, so that wasn't the answer.

I was at a complete loss as to what the answers were because for the first question, I felt that it really depended on the scenario of the flight. Additionally, I was really not understanding the lost comm question because of the way he worded it. I had to ask him for further clarification quite a few times.

So, he gave me the chance to take a few minutes to utilize whatever resources I wanted to use to find out the answers to both questions. For the lost comm question I asked 7 different flight instructors, including the SOF. I got either somewhat similar or completely different answers from all of them. Then, I asked a lead CFI (who's name I won't mention out of respect) about the bolded tower frequency box. He looked through the front of the approach plate legend sections - he gave up after several attempts to locate it's significance. I told him exactly what the various UND CFI's said.

Here are the answers:

Question 1) "The clearance limit is when you reach the holding fix to hold after going missed"

Question 2) ...and you guys will NOT believe this... "the bolded box around the tower frequency means that the tower requires clearance to land".

For answer to the bolded box question, I was like "WTF?!?!?!?!?!"...pretty much the reaction of my father too (an experienced CFI/CFII/MEI/ATP). The stage pilot said that the only location where you'll find the answer to the bolded box Final Jeopardy question was in the "Instrument Aeronautical Chart User's Guide" - ONLY AVAILABLE TO DOWNLOAD FROM THE FAA WEBSITE!!! My father helped me look it up on the FAA website and we went over the document...

http://naco.faa.gov/content/naco/onl..._IAP_Intro.pdf

If you read the document, no where in it does it say why the tower frequency box is bolded. It merely states "The bottom row contains air to ground communication facilities and frequencies in the order in which they are used during an approach with the tower frequency box bolded."

Why am I dissappointed with the outcome of the oral? Because my hard earned money paid for an extra 45 minutes @ the isntructor rate of $30-something an hour of REDICULOUS NONSENSE to find out something completely useless in my instrument training.

I will NOT mention the stage pilot's name because it would be unprofessional for me to and I feel it's not in my place to advertise the name of the difficulty stage check pilot. It's an issue that I am dealing with personally.

What do you guys think? Excessive? Either way, I passed the flight portion of the stage too. Here's the kicker: I was mysteriously reassigned to another stage check pilot right before my flight - dont know why this happened...maybe my ground school instructor mentioned something to someone at the airport - since she wasn't particularly happy with the question he/she asked in the oral.

[airplanerik]

PRUD?

[CRJ700]

Congrats man, wait til you get GANS though for the 53, 3.0 hour oral. Someone in my class had 3.7 hours with him. I was ****ing dead after that.

[Snickersnwa]

First of all, congrats! Sounds like you had a heck of a stage flight! I cannot remember for sure, but I don't think that I had to answer any "lost comm" questions for my 46. Is that supposed to be covered in the oral?

And, yah I cannot believe the trivia of the boxed tower frequency question... actually, when I was working the CFI tutoring lab this semester someone came in and asked me that very same question - I didn't know, and I tried my best to find the answer, but to no avail... thanks for the answer! Again, congrats!

[airplanerik]

Originally Posted by Snickersnwa

First of all, congrats! Sounds like you had a heck of a stage flight! I cannot remember for sure, but I don't think that I had to answer any "lost comm" questions for my 46. Is that supposed to be covered in the oral?

And, yah I cannot believe the trivia of the boxed tower frequency question... actually, when I was working the CFI tutoring lab this semester someone came in and asked me that very same question - I didn't know, and I tried my best to find the answer, but to no avail... thanks for the answer! Again, congrats!

I was kinda wondering about that too... My 46 pretty much focused on approach plates -- and that was it. Lost comms stuff is definitely more of a 53 type question.

[MrLeisure757]

Sounds like a really rough time. But you stuck it out and it paid off in the end. Congratulations!

[JaceTheAce]

Originally Posted by airplanerik

PRUD?

No not him.

[airplanerik]

Originally Posted by JaceTheAce

No not him.

K. Kinda sounded like him. Thought I would just take a guess

[JaceTheAce]

Thank you for all the congrats greetings For some reason 222 had been difficult for me. As soon as I switched to a different flight instructor, I improved immensely.

The flight was VERY fun!!! I very much enjoyed it, despite the stress involved in making sure I didn't screw anything up...plus the NDB approach was quite difficult with the weird wind changes. I liked how this new stage pilot for the flight just sat back and relaxed. He didn't say a single word - in fact I'd try to strike up a conversation and he just kept quiet because he wanted me to put the fullest concentration on the approaches. Great instructor who had some very nice input for me to consider at the end of the flight.

[JaceTheAce]

Originally Posted by airplanerik

K. Kinda sounded like him. Thought I would just take a guess

Where have you been Erik??? Are you moving into Legacy still? We'll be neighbors... a lot more movie nights at my house this summer. Look out for the Facebook event invitation haha. NetFlix 6 DVD's at a time is just lovely

[Dugie8]

Jason

Nice job staying calm and trying to find the answer. One thing that needs to be addressed, the SOF has no more special training or knowledge, I see a lot of guys saying, jeeez the SOF didn't even know, so what, big deal, the SOF is not a god.

The first question is completely legit, think outside the box of ND and "quiet" airports. Imagine the scenario someplace like LAX, the missed approach route is going to be clear, ATC is going to see you on the missed, sqauwking 7600 and get everyone out of your way. Go to the fix, do an entry and procede to your alternate via the most direct route.

The second question, I have no idea, I can't find a single airport to use as an example for why you would need to be alerted to the tower requiring the landing clearance?? Chalk it up to useless knowledge and something you can pass on to your students some day.

[airplanerik]

Originally Posted by JaceTheAce

Where have you been Erik??? Are you moving into Legacy still? We'll be neighbors... a lot more movie nights at my house this summer. Look out for the Facebook event invitation haha. NetFlix 6 DVD's at a time is just lovely

I finished my flying awhile back, just been hanging around finishing up classes. We're moving into legacy this summer.... Should be cool.

[JaceTheAce]

Originally Posted by Dugie8

Jason

Nice job staying calm and trying to find the answer. One thing that needs to be addressed, the SOF has no more special training or knowledge, I see a lot of guys saying, jeeez the SOF didn't even know, so what, big deal, the SOF is not a god.

The first question is completely legit, think outside the box of ND and "quiet" airports. Imagine the scenario someplace like LAX, the missed approach route is going to be clear, ATC is going to see you on the missed, sqauwking 7600 and get everyone out of your way. Go to the fix, do an entry and procede to your alternate via the most direct route.

The second question, I have no idea, I can't find a single airport to use as an example for why you would need to be alerted to the tower requiring the landing clearance?? Chalk it up to useless knowledge and something you can pass on to your students some day.

Dugie,

Thank you very much for the kind words. I definitely learned a couple things out of this (regarding lost comm procedures) and that stage pilots can be very unreasonable... I guess I can look to the positives out of it and know that it gave me more preparation for difficult and "unfair" check pilots in the airlines. Not only did I learn lost comm procedures, I learned that someone can really rape you with an extra 30 bucks! haha

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by JaceTheAce

Dugie,

Thank you very much for the kind words. I definitely learned a couple things out of this (regarding lost comm procedures) and that stage pilots can be very unreasonable... I guess I can look to the positives out of it and know that it gave me more preparation for difficult and "unfair" check pilots in the airlines. Not only did I learn lost comm procedures, I learned that someone can really rape you with an extra 30 bucks! haha

Don't think of it as getting raped for 30 bucks, that little tidbit of knowledge could land you a job someday. BTW, I read that link you posted, and unless I am getting really old, I saw nothing in there about the bold tower box being for landing blah blah, could you point me to page, paragraph, and column. Yes I need a map to find my ass.

[JaceTheAce]

Originally Posted by airplanerik

I finished my flying awhile back, just been hanging around finishing up classes. We're moving into legacy this summer.... Should be cool.

Cool. Good job on finishing your flying early. Oh you will just love the ultra luxury Legacy apartment estates

[CAFFEINE]

Congrats on your 46 Jace! Now just a couple IFR XCs and then the stage 53!

I know you're kinda pissed about those 2 questions, but think about it this way - if those were the only 2 questions that got you on a 2.0 hour oral then you're doing pretty darn good. I actually liked the first question. But I agree with you on the second question - pretty much trivia. It seems that not all stage check questions are to see if you know everything, some are designed to rattle you a little.

[JaceTheAce]

Originally Posted by Dugie8

Don't think of it as getting raped for 30 bucks, that little tidbit of knowledge could land you a job someday. BTW, I read that link you posted, and unless I am getting really old, I saw nothing in there about the bold tower box being for landing blah blah, could you point me to page, paragraph, and column. Yes I need a map to find my ass.

Good advice.

It's on the first page under "Pilot Briefing Information" in the last sentence of the first paragraph.

Originally Posted by CAFFEINE

Congrats on your 46 Jace! Now just a couple IFR XCs and then the stage 53!

I know you're kinda pissed about those 2 questions, but think about it this way - if those were the only 2 questions that got you on a 2.0 hour oral then you're doing pretty darn good. I actually liked the first question. But I agree with you on the second question - pretty much trivia. It seems that not all stage check questions are to see if you know everything, some are designed to rattle you a little.

Thanks I'm just very excited that I passed for the first time. I thought the stats for the flight being passed were low? Like 70%? Something like that. The 46 oral I heard has a 95% pass rate.

[Dugie8]

Jason

I am completely blind, this is what I see.

....The bottom row contains air to ground communication
facilities and frequencies in the order in which they are
used during an approach with the tower frequency box
bolded.

It doesn't say anything special about why the box is bolded, simply that it is, my thinking it is for ease of finding the tower freq.???

[JaceTheAce]

Originally Posted by Dugie8

Jason

I am completely blind, this is what I see.



It doesn't say anything special about why the box is bolded, simply that it is, my thinking it is for ease of finding the tower freq.???[/left]
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No... you are correct. It doesn't say ANYTHING about why the tower frequency box is bolded. It just says it is. I was showing this document to show everyone that the stage pilot's trivia was questionable...because no where in the document does it prove his answer.

[AngelFuree]

I think your stage pilot was probably on alcohol, as I thought he was too when I took my 325 sim stage check w/ him...his trivia is definitely questionable. No, honestly guys...I think this guy's on alcohol. I could've sworn I smelled it during the whole sim stage...

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by JaceTheAce

No... you are correct. It doesn't say ANYTHING about why the tower frequency box is bolded. It just says it is. I was showing this document to show everyone that the stage pilot's trivia was questionable...because no where in the document does it prove his answer.

I'm sorry Jason, my dyslexia is acting up, I read your answer in your first post to say that the document you linked stated the reason for the bold box, now that I slowed down and read it, I get it now. Smack the stage pilot in the back of the head!

Angel, if you really, truly, honestly think the guy was drinking and or drunk during even a sim ride, it is your resonsibility to say something to them. We don't need a repeat of KRAP.

[edik]

Originally Posted by CRJ700

Congrats man, wait til you get GANS though for the 53, 3.0 hour oral. Someone in my class had 3.7 hours with him. I was ****ing dead after that.

HAHAHA,
GANS is my CFI (222), he is a good guy. Sticks by PTS like no other. I have Jim King, (well i am due for a fail on my stage, 53). Seriously i have no clue what to study for this guy.

edik

[JaceTheAce]

Originally Posted by Dugie8

I'm sorry Jason, my dyslexia is acting up, I read your answer in your first post to say that the document you linked stated the reason for the bold box, now that I slowed down and read it, I get it now. Smack the stage pilot in the back of the head!

Angel, if you really, truly, honestly think the guy was drinking and or drunk during even a sim ride, it is your resonsibility to say something to them. We don't need a repeat of KRAP.

Ut oh, what was the story with KRAP??? (Is that his cfi identifier?) Wow... I can only imagine what happened...

[NDviaEP]

I had Mr. King for the stage 70 in 323... he's really not bad at all... I had the shortest oral of all my friends that took the class... he's a really nice guy

[edik]

Originally Posted by NDviaEP

I had Mr. King for the stage 70 in 323... he's really not bad at all... I had the shortest oral of all my friends that took the class... he's a really nice guy

I don’t know, I just get intimidated when I get a person that has been at UND for ages. I feel like they would be more strict, vs. a younger guy who can remember being in my shoes. But at the same time there is a chance that, I might be able to get some power hungry A$$. I guess it comes down to how well I am prepared. Mr. King told me to plan from MVE-RAP, so I did that on flight star tonight (yay UND laptops are being put up for aviation use, I totally feel like my 900 bucks was so worth it). Anyways I will see how it goes, my biggest prob is WX.

Edik