What do I do?

[challenger]

So I go to UND and have not been able to fly because I do not have a cosigner for a private loan.

So, regardless, there seems to be a disdain that seems to be unanimous for UND Aerospace, Where do I go and what should I actually do if people talk against it?

Should I just learn to fly at an FBO and major in whatever I see fit? Should I just leave this place altogether?

[FlyMan07]

Originally Posted by challenger

So I go to UND and have not been able to fly because I do not have a cosigner for a private loan.

So, regardless, there seems to be a disdain that seems to be unanimous for UND Aerospace, Where do I go and what should I actually do if people talk against it?

Should I just learn to fly at an FBO and major in whatever I see fit? Should I just leave this place altogether?

RUN!!!

First, I'm assuming from what you said that you can pay for the undergrad degree, just not the flying.

Seriously, jump out before it gets worse. If you can't pay, UND has nothing to offer for you. Major in something that can get you a job, and fly on the side if you desire. Or, simply talk to an airline pilot, and I'm sure they'll be able to talk you out of a Commercial Aviation degree. In todays horrific world of career aviation, you NEED a backup so you can eat (seriously).

Another option would be to major in ATC. You can easily do that degree with a minor in less than 4 years, without staying summers. However, you will still have to get your private or do survey of flight, and if you wash out/don't get hired (which is rare for a UND grad) with the FAA, the degree doesn't leave you with much. Plus, it can be a year or two after graduation until you actually get hired.

As for staying at UND, I would go elsewhere. For the most part, UND doesn't have that great of quality on the East side of campus. Personally, I'd run out of North Dakota, and the Midwest, for that matter.

Honestly though, if you can't afford UND, go to a community college and get a degree that can land you a decent job. There is nothing wrong with taking charge of your education and doing something that will make you employable.

[JaceTheAce]

RUN AWAY!

Save your money and pay for your flight training in cash. Meanwhile, go to an affordable state college (getting government loans to pay for this is okay) where you'll earn a degree in something outside of aviation. Prosper from such a decision and you will get somewhere in life without going into big debt.

[CRJDriver]

This has been discussed numerous times on here, but I will say it again. Don't get a degree in Aviation and take care of all your General Ed. classes first, preferably at an in-state institution. If I were you, I'd go back home, enroll in a local University or community college and start knocking out those General Ed. classes. You will have to take English Comp. and all those fun classes regardless of your major, buy why take them at UND where you'll pay 3x as much? Credits usually transfer easily to another college/university. Do your flying at a local FBO or find an independent CFI. Take your time and enjoy your training, and you'll save money in the long run.

[DC10FlyBy]

Originally Posted by FlyMan07

RUN!!!

First, I'm assuming from what you said that you can pay for the undergrad degree, just not the flying.

Honestly though, if you can't afford UND, go to a community college and get a degree that can land you a decent job. There is nothing wrong with taking charge of your education and doing something that will make you employable.

State college, community college if you can't afford a state. Fly on the side, non aviation related degree.
Good luck!

[juxtapilot]

Originally Posted by challenger

So I go to UND and have not been able to fly because I do not have a cosigner for a private loan.

So, regardless, there seems to be a disdain that seems to be unanimous for UND Aerospace, Where do I go and what should I actually do if people talk against it?

Should I just learn to fly at an FBO and major in whatever I see fit? Should I just leave this place altogether?

Find a different school, get low interest federal student loans, work while in school and fly on the side. If you want to fly for a career, don't give up. Take your time and enjoy the journey.

[mrflier]

Challenger,

There are many, many people on this board who seem to have a disdain for UND. I've noticed it with other schools as well. It's a very difficult time in the industry right now, and many people are very bitter (and understandably so). Just remember, going to an anonymous message board to ask advice on one of the most important decisions in your life may not be the best idea. You just don't know who is on the other end of message.

I do agree that UND (or college in general) is not for everyone. However, the people who are answering your question in the negative do not represent the majority of students at UND. In fact, the Aviation Department continually assesses its students via both focus groups and anonymous surveys. The global question that is always asked at the end of both is: "Would you recommend UND to a prospective student?" The numbers on the anonymous survey exceed 90% in the affirmative amongst graduating seniors. If you would like to see this data, you can visit with Dr. Bjerke, who heads the assessment committee.

If your ultimate goal is to fly for the airlines, then there are several proven career tracks. You can go to a college which has an aviation program; you can go to a college and fly on the side (through an FBO, for instance); or you can not go to college and learn to fly through an FBO or some ab initio program. The third option would preclude you (at present) from obtaining a pilot job at a legacy carrier.

Food for thought on the first two options is the pending legislation which will mandate a higher hour requirement for employment at an airline. The House bill allows the FAA to not require the 1500 hours through an approved academic program. Now, whether or not the FAA allows UND/ERAU et al into this category is anyone's guess. However, the bill specifically addresses schools apporved by the Aviation Accrediation Board International (AABI) as candidates. That organization's website is housed at UND. Flying at an FBO will most likely not allow you to bypass the 1500 hour requirement.

Financial aid is a big problem right now. Have you spoken with Janelle Kilgore? She is in Odegard Hall in the student services office. Also, have you considered a ROTC scholarship? Have you applied for all scholarships in general? You may have options.

Finally, I would also recommend that you visit with your academic advisor or any other member of the faculty. Tell them exactly where you are at and get as much information as possible. If you know anyone in the industry, ask them. Involve your family, friends, or anyone else who could advise you. You should also stop by the SSAC office and speak with a student representative. SAAC has a mentor program which may help as well.

Good luck in whatever you decide.

mrflier

[FlyMan07]

Originally Posted by mrflier

. However, the people who are answering your question in the negative do not represent the majority of students at UND. In fact, the Aviation Department continually assesses its students via both focus groups and anonymous surveys. The global question that is always asked at the end of both is: "Would you recommend UND to a prospective student?" The numbers on the anonymous survey exceed 90% in the affirmative amongst graduating seniors. If you would like to see this data, you can visit with Dr. Bjerke, who heads the assessment committee.

So, don't trust an anonymous forum, but trust an anonymous survey? Especially one by UND itself, when everyone knows that students are unwilling to express concerns to UND because of ramifications taken against you for speaking out.

Sure, UND has good aviation academics, and you'll get your flight ratings. The issue is GETTING A JOB THAT PAYS MORE THAN YOUR MINIMUM LOAN PAYMENT after graduation. A commercial aviation degree won't do that. Oh, by the way, you might want to make some extra money to live and eat after you pay the loan bill.

Go get a degree that has earning potential, then see if flying is still for you. It's the only route that is financially responsible, unless you're sitting on some cash.

Also, be careful on what UND tells you. Enrollment is at the lowest ever for undergrads, hence the university's turn to contract training to keep from having to fire instructors and sell airplanes. UND will tell you anything you want to hear, believe me.

Remember, it's the University itself that claims it's the "Harvard" of the skies, not an independent ratings group.

[roundout]

I feel like my UND education has gotten me ahead of the curve for the type of work I do. My degree has gotten me two jobs that I probably wouldn't have gotten had I not had the UND name on my resume.

Then again, right now when jobs are slim and aviation is just about totally dead, I have to stress how nice it would be to have a degree in SOMETHING ELSE. My UND Aviation degree won't buy me a job at Mickey D's right now. Many others are in the same boat.

If I had it to do over again, I'd have done at least my core classes in-state or at a CC and looked at my financial situation afterwards. If it was strong, I'd consider going to UND to learn to fly. If not, I'd have gone to the FBO. No two people are alike and, depending on your goals, you may very well want to stay at UND. Don't go blindly, though. You don't have to stay.

[mrflier]

Originally Posted by FlyMan07

So, don't trust an anonymous forum, but trust an anonymous survey? Especially one by UND itself, when everyone knows that students are unwilling to express concerns to UND because of ramifications taken against you for speaking out.

Just as an FYI, the anonymous survey was a verified one. Each student was issued a verification number in class and used that number to register their responses. They literally drew the numbers out of a bowl, so no one at UND would know who responded to what, just that they were indeed students and only were surveyed once.

If UND didn't keep it anonymous, how could they ensure students would be free to respond without any fear of retribution?

Challenger, get some solid facts before making your decision. Either way, you owe it to yourself as your decsion will impact you for the next 30-40 years.

[ScoutFlyer]

Challenger,

Good for you for going in search of information about options for your future. When I was in your position, I was not able to get all of the information I would have liked to have. I was a first generation college student, whose family had no idea about anything to do with getting into or paying for college, and I had a passion for aviation with no mentors. I did not know anyone in aviation and no one I tried to talk to knew anyone. Yeah, I did the Young Eagles thing, but my "local" airport wasn't that local to a kid with a working family and no car.

I ended up applying to the Air Force Academy and got a medical disqualification from there. It was January of my senior year in high school and I had the disqualification from the Academy and a couple other applications out. I had no solid plan though. I ended up getting a mailing from UND, and I decided to check it out. UND seemed like a good school from the research I was able to do, so I applied. I ended up getting accepted to UND (which most people do) and to Marywood University in PA. Marywood's program was much smaller. It was a business degree with flying from a nearby FBO offered for credit.

I was fortunate enough to get pretty good grades in school which resulted in me being offered a fairly large scholarship for Marywood. However, the in-state tuition with the scholarship was more than UND's out-of-state tuition. So I made my choice to go to UND without ever visiting the campus.

That is essentially how I decided to attend UND. I was fortunate that the program was a good fit and that I joined marching band. I met a lot of good friends through band before class ever started. I recently graduated from UND in May and am still instructing for them now.

The reason I gave you my background, is so you know the experience the advice I'm going to give you is based on:

1. Determine your attitude towards your training and your goals. Do you know that you want to fly professionally, or is it something you are trying out to see if you like it?

2. Do as much research as you can about every available option. Use all sources: phone calls, interviews, brochures, the internet, etc. You will get conflicting information, but use the variety of your sources to weed out what is factual and what might not be so applicable.

3. Take a good look at your financial situation and apply for every scholarship you can and take part in activities that may increase your chances of being awarded a scholarship.

4. Go the route that fits your life situation and desires the best.

I'm not telling you whether or not you should remain at UND. That decision is up to you based on the things I mentioned previously. That being said, I am happy that I went to UND. I think of it as an investment in my self and my future. Like all investments, there is an inherent risk. Yes, I have student loans. You can invest in many things: stocks, entrepreneurs, lottery, etc. However, an investment in your own education and future is one of the smartest you can make. No other investment gives you as much control over its outcome.

If you decided to stay at UND, there is no doubt you will receive a great education in aviation. However, it will be a large investment that may have potentially more risk than other routes of flight training, depending on your personal situation. Your satisfaction with whatever route you decide to go will be largely based on the attitude you have towards your decision. You made the decision so be happy with it and it'll make the whole process much more enjoyable. If you can't have a positive attitude towards where you're at, then it's probably time to take a step back and reconsider.

Best of luck to you!

[AngelFuree]

For the love of god (and you), stay in-state and do things the cheap way. I moved all the way from NY to ND and paid out-of-state for a few semesters. I could have stayed in-state and obtained some grants but was too blind and stupid, and decided to go to UND.

My recommendation is not so much about UND, per se, it's more about what the best choice is in saving money.

If I would have done it again, I would have gotten a degree outside of aviation, and taken flying lessons at a reputable FBO. It would have been a win-win.

I'm not saying UND sucks. It had a good training program, but was far from worth the 80K I'm in debt now while making 24K as a regional FO. Your choice, really. Please consider things thoroughly. Any questions, feel free to PM. I'd do anything to keep someone from getting into a situation like mine.

[BIGRIG]

Originally Posted by AngelFuree

....... taken flying lessons at a reputable FBO...........

What FBO's are reputable? Where can someone find out that information?

[AngelFuree]

Originally Posted by BIGRIG

What FBO's are reputable? Where can someone find out that information?

Word of mouth I guess is the only way. You ask around and talk to people, just like people come here and ask about UND, it can be done for anything else in life.

[JaceTheAce]

Originally Posted by BIGRIG

What FBO's are reputable? Where can someone find out that information?

Easy. There are a lot of really good ones in San Diego. There are some bad ones too. You know which ones are good and which ones are bad through a tight knit community and network of pilots. There are a lot good FBOs all over the USA - they aren't hard to find.

Flying clubs, IMO, are better than FBOs for flight training in that they are not in it to make a profit but to provide an affordable way to provide airplane rental. My flying club (Plus One Flyers) has a large network of very experienced CFIs who aren't time builders to become regional airline pilots - they're there to provide instruction because they genuinely want to be there - not the 18 year old Minneapolis rich kid from Eden Prairie with the Subaru WRX STi whose parents paid for their entire degree in Commerical Aviation at UND (you all know who you are).

[flyingwriter]

Originally Posted by FlyMan07

RUN!!!

First, I'm assuming from what you said that you can pay for the undergrad degree, just not the flying.

Seriously, jump out before it gets worse. If you can't pay, UND has nothing to offer for you. Major in something that can get you a job, and fly on the side if you desire. Or, simply talk to an airline pilot, and I'm sure they'll be able to talk you out of a Commercial Aviation degree. In todays horrific world of career aviation, you NEED a backup so you can eat (seriously).

Another option would be to major in ATC. You can easily do that degree with a minor in less than 4 years, without staying summers. However, you will still have to get your private or do survey of flight, and if you wash out/don't get hired (which is rare for a UND grad) with the FAA, the degree doesn't leave you with much. Plus, it can be a year or two after graduation until you actually get hired.

As for staying at UND, I would go elsewhere. For the most part, UND doesn't have that great of quality on the East side of campus. Personally, I'd run out of North Dakota, and the Midwest, for that matter.

Honestly though, if you can't afford UND, go to a community college and get a degree that can land you a decent job. There is nothing wrong with taking charge of your education and doing something that will make you employable.

I agree with everything this guy said, except the part about transferring. You'll lose credits by doing that. I would suggest majoring in something NON AVIATION RELATED!!!! Not Av. Management, not ATC; English, History, Business, Family Studies - something that doesn't involve an airfoil.

Also, you don't need a degree in ATC to become a controller (I'm in the process now), although it may help you to go through the program if for some reason the FAA stops hiring "off the street" (OTS) through Public National (PUBNAT) announcements. If you really want to be a controller, you could dual major in something NON-AVIATION and ATC.

Also, the Upper Midwest is a great place to live.

[FlyMan07]

Originally Posted by flyingwriter

I would suggest majoring in something NON AVIATION RELATED!!!! Not Av. Management, not ATC; English, History, Business, Family Studies - something that doesn't involve an airfoil.

History, I don't know, but any degree that sets you up to get into a masters program is good, too.

Originally Posted by flyingwriter

Also, you don't need a degree in ATC to become a controller (I'm in the process now), although it may help you to go through the program if for some reason the FAA stops hiring "off the street" (OTS) through Public National (PUBNAT) announcements. If you really want to be a controller, you could dual major in something NON-AVIATION and ATC.

You are very correct on this. However, from what the word is up here, the OTS hiring won't be seen much for the next five years or so. Double majoring in ATC is also a good idea, you get a backup degree and can have more experience going into the Academy, and your facility, than through PUBNAT.

Also, good luck with the OTS process!

Originally Posted by flyingwriter

Also, the Upper Midwest is a great place to live.

To each their own.

[juxtapilot]

Originally Posted by flyingwriter

I agree with everything this guy said, except the part about transferring. You'll lose credits by doing that. I would suggest majoring in something NON AVIATION RELATED!!!

Also, the Upper Midwest is a great place to live.

Depends where you go. ALL my credits transfered. Some schools will actually give you additional credits for your flight certificates...

[flyingwriter]

Originally Posted by juxtapilot

Depends where you go. ALL my credits transfered. Some schools will actually give you additional credits for your flight certificates...

You will lose credits at MOST schools by transferring, especially if you decide not to major in aviation.

Where are you at now? Central Washington?

[TXaviator]

Originally Posted by flyingwriter

You will lose credits at MOST schools by transferring, especially if you decide not to major in aviation.

Where are you at now? Central Washington?

MOST? you must be joking.

at WORST they will give you just general elective credits if there is no direct equiv. at the school.

i have a hard time seeing any major university simply discarding another major university's credit hours.

[TXaviator]

Originally Posted by flyingwriter

Also, the Upper Midwest is a great place to live.

LOL.

[juxtapilot]

Originally Posted by flyingwriter

You will lose credits at MOST schools by transferring, especially if you decide not to major in aviation.

Where are you at now? Central Washington?

Interesting... I have applied to many, and the only school that wouldn't take something was Utah Valley University... They wouldn't accept 2 credits of "University Life 101."

U of Washington will accept most credits from UND, as will all public Oregon schools. Purdue and ERAU will also accept UND's credits... Through my experience of applying to many schools, public and private, most will have accepted my transfer credits just fine. Any general education class transfers very easily, but the aviation classes just transfer as electives (to a non-aviation university.)

Have you transfered from UND to a different school? I'm curious where they wouldn't take your credits.

[juxtapilot]

Originally Posted by TXaviator

MOST? you must be joking.

at WORST they will give you just general elective credits if there is no direct equiv. at the school.

i have a hard time seeing any major university simply discarding another major university's credit hours.

I have a friend who transfered out of UND, and was given credits for all his UND courses, and additional credits for his flight labs. He actually gained credits transfering out of UND.

Originally Posted by TXaviator

LOL.

Surely you can't be serious...

[TXaviator]

Originally Posted by juxtapilot

Have you transfered from UND to a different school? I'm curious where they wouldn't take your credits.

perhaps he is a shill to dissuade students from running away from UND...

i have a very hard time seeing why ANYONE would go to UND in the current economic climate, and in light of their obvious operational problems right now.

[flyingwriter]

Originally Posted by TXaviator

perhaps he is a shill to dissuade students from running away from UND...

i have a very hard time seeing why ANYONE would go to UND in the current economic climate, and in light of their obvious operational problems right now.

I have no affiliation with UND. Never went there, never will go there. I can only speak for schools in the state of Michigan, my home state, and I know many people who have transferred from out of state and have lost credits doing so, or have had a hard time getting their credits to transfer. Maybe it's more efficient out west.

I agree with your statement about UND's aviation program - I don't see why anyone would want to do that in today's economic climate. However, if someone wants to move to beautiful North Dakota and major in Political Science or Chemistry, why should I try to stop them?

Also, on the Upper Midwest thing. No sarcasm was intended. The Midwest is home to me. I love it here. I'd sooner be hit by a train than move to Texas or California. If you don't like it, that's fine, but others feel differently.