UND Contract Student Injured in C172 Solo Crash at PKD

[TXaviator]

its interesting that none of our UND cheerleaders have weighed in on the subject, considering its directly relevant to our discussion.

do you think this kid used his pretakeoff checklist?

[av8or91]

Talked to someone in standards today who had just talked to dana and they are saying that power was low, (as can be seen by the prop) and they are suspecting either a mechanical malfunction causing a loss of engine power or stall after takeoff which isn't consistent with the way the prop bent unless he pulled power back.

I think its ridiculous that they push the Air China's through training and im guilty of it. One thing I have not done is let someone go solo or in for a stage check unless I knew they could pass even if it means going to review board.

[TXaviator]

hard to tell from the pic, but it sure looks like he just drove it off the end of the runway.... id also LOVE to hear the explanation for this one.

[Prom]

Driving off the end of the runway shouldn't cause theengine to be "severed" as was stated in one report, however speculation is one of the worst things in this business.

I was gonna go off on a tangent about everyone expecting the Air China students to crash just because they are chinese, but I dont think this is the place for that discussion. Some of them are truely fine aviators, and I am glad Li walked away safely, that is all from me.

[TXaviator]

no one here suggested that merely because of their race/ethnicity they should be expected to crash, so don't add your own commentary to my words.

however we DO/DID expect them to crash because of many things... some of which being, rushed training, inadequate mastery of the knowledge, skills, and abilities required of an aviator, extremely poor ADM possibly due to cultural differences, etc.

no one here wished physical harm on the guy either.

[Blip16]

Originally Posted by TXaviator

its interesting that none of our UND cheerleaders have weighed in on the subject, considering its directly relevant to our discussion.

do you think this kid used his pretakeoff checklist?

what is the point of commenting? it is all speculation anyway

[Prom]

Sorry TX, didnt mean to sound like I was singleing you out.

I agree there are problems inherent in training due to cultural differences and rushed training and that changes should be made, however I have known people who nearly panic every time they hear a chinese voice on the radio, practically praying that they dont come anywhere nearby. I understand that it is difficult to understand them and as always you should keep your SA up when any aircraft comes near, but I remember my first solo XC and I know for a fact that alot of Chinese instrument students flying solo have more experience/knowledge/abilities than I had back then, yet they are treated differently than english speaking students. I know there are problems yet there are Chinese students who I truely enjoyed flying with and they were great pilots and I had no problem sending them solo, while there were english speaking students I was afraid to put my name in their logbook. It goes both ways, but many people focus on the bad and perpetuate it.

[TXaviator]

Prom I agree it most definitely goes both ways, and being an inept pilot knows no limitation of race or ethnicity !


Hopefully this incident will bring corrective action to UND's program, before someone gets seriously hurt or killed as a result of current policies/business decisions.

[400A]

Originally Posted by TXaviator

its interesting that none of our UND cheerleaders have weighed in on the subject, considering its directly relevant to our discussion.

do you think this kid used his pretakeoff checklist?

What is there to say? If the argument is made that he didn't follow procedures you will just say that UNDs training is inadequete, if the argument is made that he did follow procedures then you will argue that all the rules (of which there aren't that many) are for not.

I don't think anyone here is a cheerleader, but you guys have this giant chip on your shoulder thinking that UND is some way wronged you and revenge must be exacted. The only way you can think of to do it is to tell people not to go to the school based on half truths and exaggerations.

I want you to find one post by anyone who you classify as a cheerleader that urges people to go to UND and compare those number of posts to the number of posts from you and others that bash UND. Of course you would argue that the lack of "urging" to go to UND is proof that there is something wrong with the program.

What is the accident rate for UND anyway?

[oktex88]

Originally Posted by TXaviator

Hopefully this incident will bring corrective action to UND's program, before someone gets seriously hurt or killed as a result of current policies/business decisions.

So you are saying that you think certain polices or business decisions at UND contributed to this incident?

Which ones in particular do you think contributed to this incident?

[TXaviator]

Originally Posted by oktex88

So you are saying that you think certain polices or business decisions at UND contributed to this incident?

Which ones in particular do you think contributed to this incident?

The pushing of contract students through the system and pressuring of CFI's to sign off/pass contract students at lower standards than held for domestic students, because contract students = dollars.

This corporate culture has been reported to me directly by CFI's who where pressured to pass/sign off contract students who they didnt not feel were ready.

[400A]

Originally Posted by TXaviator

The pushing of contract students through the system and pressuring of CFI's to sign off/pass contract students at lower standards than held for domestic students, because contract students = dollars.

This corporate culture has been reported to me directly by CFI's who where pressured to pass/sign off contract students who they didnt not feel were ready.

That is a very big accusation, especially since it is second hand. I am not naive enough to say it isn't happening, but it isn't happening to YOU.

I ARAMCO students while at UND and was never pressured to do anything, both as an instructor and as a check pilot.

[Blip16]

Originally Posted by TXaviator

The pushing of contract students through the system and pressuring of CFI's to sign off/pass contract students at lower standards than held for domestic students, because contract students = dollars.

This corporate culture has been reported to me directly by CFI's who where pressured to pass/sign off contract students who they didnt not feel were ready.

trust me, there are not pressuring anyone to pass/lower standards for the contract students. there is pressure to get some of them done/caught up because of the time schedule they are on, but there is not anyone i am aware of telling people to just pass them!

[pwttogfk]

Originally Posted by 400A

I ARAMCO students while at UND and was never pressured to do anything, both as an instructor and as a check pilot.

The ARAMCO students also are in the normal undergrad ground schools and already have advanced educations from other English-speaking universities. I had a guy in my 222 class with a degree from Oxford, I think. I've gotten to know a couple of the ARAMCO students, and they're freakin' geniuses. Plus, they're not segregated into their own ground schools that're operated at a cram pace.

[TXaviator]

Originally Posted by pwttogfk

The ARAMCO students also are in the normal undergrad ground schools and already have advanced educations from other English-speaking universities. I had a guy in my 222 class with a degree from Oxford, I think. I've gotten to know a couple of the ARAMCO students, and they're freakin' geniuses. Plus, they're not segregated into their own ground schools that're operated at a cram pace.

Agreed. I was close friends with some ARAMCO guys and they are serious academic machines. Bright guys, and understood what was going on. They had cultural challenges to overcome as well, but their integration into class and the university experience as a whole seemed to have made it much easier for them to adapt/understand. Many of them were also active in the International Students programs (I was as well), I do not know if the Chinese/Taiwanese students are participating in other campus activities such as those....anyone know?

As for the CFI pressuring, I'll let the firsthand sources speak up if they want, but if you REALLY, REALLY think the contract students are on the same level as the domestic students, you are only deluding yourself.

I'm very glad I'm not flying in that area of the sky anymore.

[400A]

Well, my perspective may be skewed, because if you guys feel the ARAMCO students were, for lack of a better term, "normal" than things have really gone down the crapper.

[oktex88]

Originally Posted by TXaviator

The pushing of contract students through the system and pressuring of CFI's to sign off/pass contract students at lower standards than held for domestic students, because contract students = dollars.

This corporate culture has been reported to me directly by CFI's who where pressured to pass/sign off contract students who they didnt not feel were ready.

Do you have a copy of a memo, policy or email saying to pass contract students at lower standards?

Otherwise you are just blowing smoke and speculating.

[Blip16]

As for the CFI pressuring, I'll let the firsthand sources speak up if they want, but if you REALLY, REALLY think the contract students are on the same level as the domestic students, you are only deluding yourself.

i already spoke up. i have had some students who were very far behind, and i have been told i need to have them done by xxxx date, but never just drop your standards. the last one i had went over by 15 or 16 hours in 325, and i was in constant contact with the people in charge and it was approved. anything to get him done was OK, but dropping standards was NOT.

your not a CFI, you pansied out; dont speculate. if you have a chip on your shoulder about YOUR choice to attend UND, keep it to yourself. overall it is a good school (notice i didn't say great). Does UND have it's fair share of problems, yes! Are they more pronounced than other schools, YES; due to the fact there is more flying than the 3 or 4 other schools in the top 5 schools in the nation! but guess what, they all have problems. drop it already

the main problem with UND right now is the WHINY ASS STUDENTS who want everything handed to them on a f'ing silver platter. it is the current generation, Y or whatever, the ME generation. All they care about is themselves, and it should be handed to them, they shouldn't have to put in the effort. they should put in 4yrs and then have a job that pays 100K waiting for them when they are done. The school is fine, it is the students (not all of them, but a good majority of them are ruining it for everyone else)

//end rant. i am done with this forum

[BIGRIG]

Originally Posted by oktex88

Do you have a copy of a memo, policy or email saying to pass contract students at lower standards?

Otherwise you are just blowing smoke and speculating.

Not the first or last time our Aviator from Texas was blowing something out his.....nevermind. I am gonna believe BuickCFI on this one. By the way what are the ARAMCO guys you are referring too?

[BIGRIG]

Originally Posted by BuickCFI

i already spoke up. i have had some students who were very far behind, and i have been told i need to have them done by xxxx date, but never just drop your standards. the last one i had went over by 15 or 16 hours in 325, and i was in constant contact with the people in charge and it was approved. anything to get him done was OK, but dropping standards was NOT.

your not a CFI, you pansied out; dont speculate. if you have a chip on your shoulder about YOUR choice to attend UND, keep it to yourself. overall it is a good school (notice i didn't say great). Does UND have it's fair share of problems, yes! Are they more pronounced than other schools, YES; due to the fact there is more flying than the 3 or 4 other schools in the top 5 schools in the nation! but guess what, they all have problems. drop it already

the main problem with UND right now is the WHINY ASS STUDENTS who want everything handed to them on a f'ing silver platter. it is the current generation, Y or whatever, the ME generation. All they care about is themselves, and it should be handed to them, they shouldn't have to put in the effort. they should put in 4yrs and then have a job that pays 100K waiting for them when they are done. The school is fine, it is the students (not all of them, but a good majority of them are ruining it for everyone else)

//end rant. i am done with this forum

++++++1. Excellent post my friend. Do not leave, you are the only credible source on here for what is happening at UND in flight ops.

[ScoutFlyer]

Took the words right out of my fingertips. I agree with Buick 100%. Yes, the contract students are on a tight schedule and yes, the instructor staff is expected to keep up. But like Buick said, training standards are not to be lowered to meet the schedule. Perhaps more effort is required on the instructor's part to squeeze in some extra flights to build the student's proficiency...and maybe a review board is held if a student is taking a bit longer than the rest. But I can honestly say I've never been pressured to sign off on a student, contract or otherwise, on something that I didn't feel he/she was ready for.

to Buick, he knows what's up.

[juxtapilot]

Originally Posted by BuickCFI

the main problem with UND right now is the WHINY ASS STUDENTS who want everything handed to them on a f'ing silver platter. it is the current generation, Y or whatever, the ME generation. All they care about is themselves, and it should be handed to them, they shouldn't have to put in the effort. they should put in 4yrs and then have a job that pays 100K waiting for them when they are done. The school is fine, it is the students (not all of them, but a good majority of them are ruining it for everyone else)

//end rant. i am done with this forum

Aren't these whiny students becoming CFIs at UND? Is there any truth that they may not understand professionalism, and that rushing students can be done safely and professionally without lowering standards? I find it hard to believe that all of UND's CFIs aren't lowering standards to get students through. I don't find it hard to believe that some instructors feel pressure to get students through, and in doing so lower their standards. Judging from the past and the students who complain about some instructor busting them on a stage because the student was barely outside standards, then that student becoming an instructor, it doesn't take a genius to see that standards can quite easily be lowered. Since I'm not at UND, and don't have any current experiences there to base anything on, this is all where I saw UND's flight ops heading... I'm not saying that all CFIs there lower standards (I am sure many if not most don't) but there are at least a few who do don't you think?

[400A]

Juxta

You bring up a point, that in my opinion, shines a giant light on the crux of the problem. You say, paraphrasing, "Busting for being just outside of standards". You are either in standards or out, there really is no "just outside". As a check airmen you have discretion and the PTS has guidance on what is expected, but what you said is what almost all the students who complain the loudest "say".

If a steep turn is +/- 100 feet being 120 feet off is outside of standards, period. It goes back to this mentality that a lot students started to show when I was there and just before I left and what apparently is running rampant now. They seem to think all they have to do is a be a warm body in the seat, not crash and the lesson/stage check should be an S. When they are held to standards the crying and finger pointing begins.

This isn't unique to UND or aviation. My wife teaches at the college here in town and her students are the same way. She always has questions on the test that are from assigned readings and it is clear that questions can and will come from those readings. Without fail there is a handful of students who whine and complain about the questions being unfair and that my wife didn't "teach them".

Now, without a doubt, there are some instructors who take the "pressure" of get these students done by such and such a date as permission to lower standards, that isn't a UND problem, that is a problem with the Professionalism and Integrity of the individual instructor. What is this person going to do when WX is below mins but it is the last leg of the day and they are off after that flight?

[Blip16]

Now, without a doubt, there are some instructors who take the "pressure" of get these students done by such and such a date as permission to lower standards, that isn't a UND problem, that is a problem with the Professionalism and Integrity of the individual instructor. What is this person going to do when WX is below mins but it is the last leg of the day and they are off after that flight?

which is what i am afraid of. i am one of the "harder" stage pilots now because i hold standards. i don't understand how holding standards (i go by 100% PTS) is now "hard" the PTS is minimum standards. so now all these students will become instructors (and many have) and their students are worse than they were on the stage checks.....

[TXaviator]

Originally Posted by BIGRIG

By the way what are the ARAMCO guys you are referring too?

Saudi nationals sent here by the state owned oil company (i believe thats what ARAMCO is, someone correct me if im off slightly) to become fixed wing and rotary wing pilots to fly for the company.

They continually kicked my butt in soccer too.