UND...

[400A]

A checklist is there because we are human and make mistakes. Arguing against them because of some self proclaimed superiority is foolish. Yes, most single engine airplanes, especially fixed gear types, are very simple and very few things can kill you if you don't use them (boost pumps, lights, radios, etc).

If that is all you plan to fly the rest of your life/career, then so be it, I can't really argue for or against checklist usage. HOWEVER, if the goal is to move on to bigger equipment, checklist usage is MANDATORY not some PITA thing we do to be legal. Using a checklist is a skill and one that is blatantly obvious to be lacking in those that just don't use them and it is a impedement to a crew operation.

If you really think you won't ever miss anything and don't need a checklist, you need to take a long look in the mirror and decide if you really should be doing this, if you think that missing something that should be on a checklist is ok, just because it won't kill you, you need to do the same.

Yes, most POH checklists are jokes and are more of an obstacle than the tool they should be, that is up to the pilot/operator to make them workable, not just throw them out the window because the one in the book is useless. You shouldn't rely on how the airplane should be configured you should rely on HOW YOU ACTUALLY configured the airplane.

Simple things like landing lights can cause a lot of damage, don't retract the landing lights in a BeechJet and there is a chance you could get one or both through the motors.

[TXaviator]

a) i never proclaimed im superior, that was buick's comment i believe

b) i never said it would be wise/legal to NOT use a checklist in large/fast/turbine aircraft

c) nor did i say i do, or someone should, just jump into a plane and go willy-nilly flipping knobs randomly and see what happens.

you guys are so quick to get defensive when something isnt the UND way!! WOW.

you should read the articles I linked to. I am not alone in my thinking.

[Blip16]

Originally Posted by TXaviator

a) i never proclaimed im superior, that was buick's comment i believe

b) i never said it would be wise/legal to NOT use a checklist in large/fast/turbine aircraft

c) nor did i say i do, or someone should, just jump into a plane and go willy-nilly flipping knobs randomly and see what happens.

you guys are so quick to get defensive when something isnt the UND way!! WOW.

you should read the articles I linked to. I am not alone in my thinking.

i firmly believe in doing flows in a logical manner, but then following it up with a checklist to make sure you got everything required. just ask my old part 61 students, that is how i taught it. you are saying a checklist isn't required

[TXaviator]

Originally Posted by BuickCFI

i firmly believe in doing flows in a logical manner, but then following it up with a checklist to make sure you got everything required. just ask my old part 61 students, that is how i taught it. you are saying a checklist isn't required

show me the regulation that says you must have a checklist out and being followed and I will gladly change my song and dance.

[400A]

Originally Posted by TXaviator

a) i never proclaimed im superior, that was buick's comment i believe

b) i never said it would be wise/legal to NOT use a checklist in large/fast/turbine aircraft

c) nor did i say i do, or someone should, just jump into a plane and go willy-nilly flipping knobs randomly and see what happens.

you guys are so quick to get defensive when something isnt the UND way!! WOW.

you should read the articles I linked to. I am not alone in my thinking.

I did read the article and I think the guy is completely out to lunch, thus my comments, as they were not directed at you.

Finding one guy, who wrote 2 articles to justify a way of operation is hardly a "defense" nor is it proper justification.

Some things that are permitted by regulation (circling approaches, single engine IFR with paxs, etc) are too dangerours, some things that aren't specifically required by FAR, checklist usage, CRM usages, etc, are necessary, IMO.

[Blip16]

Originally Posted by TXaviator

show me the regulation that says you must have a checklist out and being followed and I will gladly change my song and dance.

why do you think a checklist is a stupid device and not required to fly an airplane? this is where i am confused

[TXaviator]

Originally Posted by BuickCFI

why do you think a checklist is a stupid device and not required to fly an airplane? this is where i am confused

again you keep inserting ideas into my comments. im not going to continue to discuss things with you if you refuse to so much as glance at what i actually said.

you not only cannot answer a simple question directed at you, but you also insist on putting words in my mouth.

good day.

[AngelFuree]

Ah, the UND forums... None of us are still at UND (fortunately) yet we manage to get into these arguments.

[TXaviator]

Originally Posted by AngelFuree

Ah, the UND forums... None of us are still at UND (fortunately) yet we manage to get into these arguments.

well i think buick is still there... he was there when i arrived, and he's still there while im on my 2nd year of flying in the real world....

[Stinger]

Originally Posted by TXaviator

well i think buick is still there... he was there when i arrived, and he's still there while im on my 2nd year of flying in the real world....

But I'm willing to bet that Buick enjoys being an instructor for UND at least as much as you like flying in the real world. Plus he probably has better benefits and knows that he'll be home almost every day.

[TXaviator]

Originally Posted by Stinger

But I'm willing to bet that Buick enjoys being an instructor for UND at least as much as you like flying in the real world. Plus he probably has better benefits and knows that he'll be home almost every day.

see, there you UND guys go again trying to say who is "better".... you guys sure are quick to defend everything about UND!!

[BIGRIG]

Originally Posted by TXaviator

see, there you UND guys go again trying to say who is "better".... you guys sure are quick to defend everything about UND!!

You're very quick to rip on everything about UND. But its a problem when someone defends it? Get serious.

[JaceTheAce]

Originally Posted by BIGRIG

You're very quick to rip on everything about UND. But its a problem when someone defends it? Get serious.

You're very quick to defend UND, but it's a problem when someone rips on it?

Ahhh, the art of debating.

[400A]

Originally Posted by TXaviator

see, there you UND guys go again trying to say who is "better".... you guys sure are quick to defend everything about UND!!

Hold on, you complained that people were putting words in your mouth and now you are doing the same. In almost every post where I speak up about what you guys complain about UND I make it very clear there are things that could be better. Now, I realize my opinion doesn't have to be shared by everyone and not everyone sees the world through my eyes, but IMHO you guys complain about things that really have no merit and I don't think you have done any real research into why things are the way they are.

I think most of you that do the most complaining have some kind of axe to grind with the people from the Grand Forks area, for one reason or another. You seem to think that bashing UND is some way of getting even or taking a parting shot at GFK and ND/the region as a whole. To me it is evident in the numerous references to "lack of culture" "never travelling farther than MSP" etc.

I don't mean to pick on you TX, but since your position is the major point of this thread, you become collatoral damage. I am assuming you haven't done your research on how or why the FAA suggests a checklist be designed (albeit it is for 121 and 135). I would argue that a checklist for a 121/135 operator would be very good for a private operator. If you had done your homework and read the document the FAA has on checklist design and function you would see that your author, whom I doubt has read the document either, is preaching the very same thing the FAA does about checklist usage/design. It is common sense stuff. The problem comes from people who, through a combination of factors and some of the big ones being; don't use checklist, make up procedures on the fly, are not standard, etc. We end up with documents that are designed to take the thinking out and replace it with automation because a vast majority of people just don't get it. You are absolutely correct, you don't need a checklist to tell you to use flaps or not for takeoff, common sense, but look up the DTW NWA crash.

For almost every example of not neading a checklist you can provide, I bet I can provide a crash of either a highly experience 121 crew or some weekend warrior bug smasher destroying a perfectly good airplane. If you think those people did that on purpose, were just that dumb and that it has no chance of happening to you, then I can't help you or debate with you, you are delusional (that isn't a slam).

Now, back to the UND thing. You guys want to bash UND, go right ahead, last time I checked, it is still a free country (hopefully it stays that way for the next 3 or so years). Those of us who had different experiences and different takes on things will be right there to balance it out. It isn't UND cheerleading, it isn't argueing for the sake of argueing, it is balancing the debate. If everyone had the horrible experience(s) you guys had, UND would be out of business already, contract students be damned, if everyone had the same experience(s) I had, UND wouldn't need contract students and flight costs would be cheaper than basket weaving 101.

If you think 1 season of flying the line (be it airlines, corporate, mapping, etc) has given you the foundation on which to judge a training program you really need to check your egoes, you have infinite more stuff to learn and experience.

[Maximillian_Jenius]

@ coa787!

Told ya so...

[AngelFuree]

Originally Posted by Maximillian_Jenius

@ coa787!

Told ya so...

Best post of the thread.

[Katabat1c_SEA]

Originally Posted by AngelFuree

Best post of the thread.

Agreed.

[Kestrel452]

Originally Posted by Kestrel452

[GUNIT]

Kestrel,

you keep throwing the good ole' black and gold out there. You're not in the flight program yet, correct? I suggest you withhold judgment until you have actually experienced it. No different than UND

[Screaming_Emu]

My quick take on UND

1) It is what you make of it
2) Combining flight training with college is more complicated than it is worth (pre-reqs based on flight training can make getting out in 4 years very difficult.)
3) Great facilities and maintenance
4) Get outside the UND bubble as much as possible. Then when you graduate, go instruct somewhere else to further exit the bubble.
5) UND is a tool to get where you want to go. Put the time and work in and you'll get there.
6) There are other ways. I wouldn't do it again, but that is largely because I hated the location.
7) If you do go there, have a life outside of aviation. This really applies anywhere. Being well rounded is a trait not much seen anymore

And lastly, TXAviator. You will bend an airplane one day. I promise you this.

[TXaviator]

emu. whenever i reach retirement age (assuming we get to retire in this lifetime), presuming i still have a clean sheet of unbent aircraft,.... ill have a fine whiskey neat, on your tab. make that wager?

[flyeagle111]

Just go ATC and forget the flying bs. In all honesty though, I'm wondering why the hell I am getting the ATC degree when I could be getting a more useful degree at a better school.

[HVYMETALDRVR]

I went to UND with my PPL and graduated 4 years later in May of 2007 Commercial, Multi Instrument and CFI and CFII and the CRJ transition course. I don't regret anything, I thought it was some of the best flight training on the market. The restrictions suck but thats most an insurance issue and its still one of the safest schools on the market. The "UND bubble" definitely exists but that doesn't mean you can't get good training there.I credit the fractional job I landed to the preparation I received and the level of training I received at UND. On the flip side I was released from that job 9 months later because of the economic woes and the company started selling their planes.

A couple pieces of advice if you want to go there...

1. Be ready to get your mental @ss kicked and work, its a serious program and your wasting your time if partying is the #1 thing on your mind.

2. GFK is a frozen wasteland be prepared for some of the coldest wx you've ever seen outside of Alaska.

3. Its expensive, very expensive if you don't take your training seriously, kind of like a prostitute. Get in, work hard, do it what you need to do, get it done and get out. We used to tease the aviation nerds aka "prop heads" because they were always studying on Friday nights etc. but they're the ones that got out in 3 and probably still have jobs right now...

4. The only fault I give the school is its lack of preparation for life outside the bubble. Between the lack of air travel in the region, good mx, heavy restrictions and safety oriented culture we were spoiled. After graduation I moved to Miami and experienced a HuGE culture shock that really blew me away. If they were hiring CFIs right now I'm on the fence if I would go back, but I feel I could probably bring a lot of good experience to the table.

5. Lastly don't swallow all the , UND has a good name thats gotten me respect but theres all kind of crazy rumors running around people have asked me about. A person once told me he heard all the Warriors used for PPL and instrument had gear handles fixed in the down position so the student would remember to check if it was down. The final check for the warrior when I was there (said outloud) was Gear DOWN (or Gear welded down as we would joke) Mixture RICH, and Power SET. But NO frozen gear handle. Another was that the Director of Safety (who had a reputation for being strict, but fair), had planted cameras all around the taxi ways to catch people taxiing to fast. Also untrue, again when I was there.

Take it for what it is, everyone wants the perfect flight schools, but thats pretty much impossible in an industry thats FA RRRRRRR, VERY FAR from perfect. Any other questions feel free to PM me. Good luck.

[Screaming_Emu]

Originally Posted by HVYMETALDRVR

A person once told me he heard all the Warriors used for PPL and instrument had gear handles fixed in the down position so the student would remember to check if it was down.

Actually back when UND had cadets they had dummy gear handles. They moved, but obviously the gear doesn't actually move.

I think that's a better idea than calling "gear down" when the gear actually isn't. Seems negative transfer to me because now you'll connect saying "gear down" with not actually doing anything.

[Blip16]

Originally Posted by Screaming_Emu

Actually back when UND had cadets they had dummy gear handles. They moved, but obviously the gear doesn't actually move.

I think that's a better idea than calling "gear down" when the gear actually isn't. Seems negative transfer to me because now you'll connect saying "gear down" with not actually doing anything.

final check is just "flaps ____"