Instrument profiles?

[BIGRIG]

Does anybody have the current checklist they can post on here or PM me? I want to see what they look like. Just to compare them to when I was there.

[ml_wd]

The checklist is almost identical to the past checklists except there is a line in the before takeoff and before landing (for the SEMI atleast). I really don't see the big deal is. It took all of one flight for my students to adapt. I cant speak first hand for the profiles yet as my student are not quite there yet, but I don't see it being a hard transition. Its not much more work then we were doing before. The one thing I do like is it standardizes everyone, so the student and check pilot are on the same page. You don't have 200 instructors and 800 students making things up the fly.

[oktex88]

I don't see what all the gripe is about. You probably choose to go to UND because you eventually want to become an airline pilot, right? If not then why the heck are you coming to UND? For those of you that complain at how much it is, you should have figured out the costs before you started school here. So back to this.. you came to UND because you wanted to be an airline pilot and that is what you are paying them to do. UND made these changes to the checklists and implemented instrument profiles to help standardize when and what callouts should be made on approaches and guess what.... airlines use these same callouts and have these same checklists with "above the line/below the line". They are also there to improve the safety of the flight. This is just helping students learn procedures that you are eventually going to use at an airline. What are you going to do when the airline you work for implements some new required callouts? Are you going to quit your job? No.
If you can't deal with all these procedures how are you going to deal with the changing procedures at an airline?

[juxtapilot]

Profiles aren't so bad... Aren't they just teaching students to plan ahead? Isn't the point when flying to be ahead of the airplane? Profiles will probably help students who are having trouble with this. To some, I can see why they are seen as overkill.

Checklist on the other hand... Oh brother...

[400A]

Profiles are a great thing. They may look complicated on paper, but in practice they make things much smoother and much easier for you to recognize when something isn't going right.

Put the idea of flying as a crew aside, single pilot, following a profile will keep your work load down, keep you safe and can make you more effecient. Flying the profile is one small part of the overall flight and believe it or not, you are flying profiles right now, ie abeam the TDZ power to 1700 RPM, one notch of flaps, start a descent, etc.

Somebody post these checklists that are so horrible. If all they added was a line, then those checklists needed a line a LONG time ago. Proper checklist discipline and usage dictates that you never pause a checklist unless you start it over, too easy to miss an item.

[juxtapilot]

Originally Posted by 400A

Somebody post these checklists that are so horrible. If all they added was a line, then those checklists needed a line a LONG time ago. Proper checklist discipline and usage dictates that you never pause a checklist unless you start it over, too easy to miss an item.

Haha, so true. They're so long already, but there was no way to mark your place.. So you look up, and have to scan the checklist to see where you left off. I think people just think it's silly to say "below the line" etc during early training.

[400A]

I think you might be uncovering some of the problem here. A CRJ flies the same as a 172/PA28. Air flows over the wing, the wing creates lift, the pilot sleeps as the airplane drones along through the air.

When did things turn into being silly or uncool to say just because of the size of the MGTOW number? Using a checklist is a skill, trust me. I have flown with people who can't run a checklist as designed and it is like pulling teeth. Sure you can just say the heck with it and motor on, but that isn't what we are paid to do.

Even if UND is becoming an airline pilot factory, having a standard checklist and having it be formatted in a way that is useful and easy for EVERYONE to use is a good idea. Most of the time there are two people in the airplane, everyone needs to be on the same page. As soon as people start thinking that an airplane is too simple to screw up in, something will bite you.

[TXaviator]

The problem is the de facto removing of ANY CONSCIOUS THOUGHT PROCESS from the pilot, and making them into list-operating robots.

I could easily round up a dozen pilots, who are AWESOME at following procedures and checklists, but who have NO CLUE what to do as soon as something not found in the checklist happens.... or else something happens and they quickly dive into the checklist instead of using the BRAIN and troubleshooting appropriately.

Originally Posted by 400A

I think you might be uncovering some of the problem here. A CRJ flies the same as a 172/PA28. Air flows over the wing, the wing creates lift, the pilot sleeps as the airplane drones along through the air.

When did things turn into being silly or uncool to say just because of the size of the MGTOW number? Using a checklist is a skill, trust me. I have flown with people who can't run a checklist as designed and it is like pulling teeth. Sure you can just say the heck with it and motor on, but that isn't what we are paid to do.

Even if UND is becoming an airline pilot factory, having a standard checklist and having it be formatted in a way that is useful and easy for EVERYONE to use is a good idea. Most of the time there are two people in the airplane, everyone needs to be on the same page. As soon as people start thinking that an airplane is too simple to screw up in, something will bite you.

[400A]

Originally Posted by TXaviator

The problem is the de facto removing of ANY CONSCIOUS THOUGHT PROCESS from the pilot, and making them into list-operating robots.

I could easily round up a dozen pilots, who are AWESOME at following procedures and checklists, but who have NO CLUE what to do as soon as something not found in the checklist happens.... or else something happens and they quickly dive into the checklist instead of using the BRAIN and troubleshooting appropriately.

You are equating standardization with the removal of "thinking", when it is the farthest thing from it. It takes time and a little experience to see how it all blends together, ie try to fly into ATL or JFK and not be on the same profile as everyone else, doesn't work.

Profiles and flows are guidelines, they provide a foundation to build on, a safe way to operate the airplane and within the airspace. It takes time to be able to honestly modify those profiles to fit differing situations. I raise my eye brow just a bit to those with a short career so far that just chuck the profiles to the wind and, for lack of a better term, wing it and think they are actually ahead of the game. All UND does by integrating these items is give you the tool in your tool belt to use and build upon.

I used to get a lot of flak for having my students fly the Seminole at different speeds on different segments of the approach, ie inbound to the inital, as fast as you can go, initial to intermediate, slowing to approach flap speed (god Im getting old I can't remember it), intermediate to final slowing to gear and landing flap speed by the FAF. I also used to make students fly the warrior on approaches with nothing but the rudder and power with full procedure turns.

At some place like UND you simply cannot have 20 different ways to do things, how do you conduct a stage check? You could argue that stage pilots should be able to judge from individual performance, but to what standard? Are you flying 130 knots because that is what you aimed for or just because that is where the airspeed settled, did you dive and drive for the approach or follow a constant angle of descent to arrive at or nearly before a VDP, etc.

There has to be stanards and there has to be a standard way of doing things. The UND way is by no means the end all be all BUT, at the same time it also isn't this evil incarnate thing that should be resisted with utmost ferocity. A building foundation, that is all it is. If and when those that choose to, move on to bigger equipement, it will only help. Those that choose not to have a tool in their belt to help them be safer and more proficient pilots.

Raging against the machine to just "Rage Against The Machine" doesn't solve anything and it sure as hell doesn't improve safety or quality of training. I bet if you let things "go" at UND and everyone was free to go and do their own thing, the anarchy would cause more aluminum rain falls over campus than you could believe. Not because people are dumb or unsafe on their own, because what one person thinks is safe and prudent could very well interfere with what someone else is doing, whilst they think it is safe and prudent (and very well could be). It is safer, more efficient for training, and just plain easier to have everyone on the same page and build from there. The 250 or so hours you get at UND is just a drop in the bucket compared to all the experience you will get in a lifetime, but the foundation that you build that experience on will be solid if you just cooperate and work with the system instead of wedging that crowbar into every little crack you can find.

Things cant be that strict, there is a Seminole on the ground overnight here in Rochester 596ND I think.

[ScoutFlyer]

400A,

Excellent post!

[TXaviator]

400A i think we're actually more on the same wavelength than our words would suggest.

ill compose a better reply after a few fewer beers and firefly vodkas (btw, if you love sweet tea, try FIREFLY!)

i'm by no means suggesting that people should abandon procedures and "rage against the machine" solely for the sake of being the squeaky wheel...

and actually, your methods of teaching approaches on "practical" situational speeds sounds great! but that would be frowned upon by UND....

[DhruvK]

Originally Posted by 400A

Things cant be that strict, there is a Seminole on the ground overnight here in Rochester 596ND I think.

Great post 400A. That SEMI in RST is probably a brand spanking new delivery one on its way up here - they've been ordering a few new Glass SEMIs for 325 and MEI because of increased demand and the slow phase-out of the Bendix-equipped models. RST's been a common stopover on the way up - 590, 591, and 593 passed through there back in May-June.

[Blip16]

Originally Posted by DhruvK

Great post 400A. That SEMI in RST is probably a brand spanking new delivery one on its way up here - they've been ordering a few new Glass SEMIs for 325 and MEI because of increased demand and the slow phase-out of the Bendix-equipped models. RST's been a common stopover on the way up - 590, 591, and 593 passed through there back in May-June.

actually it is 595nd and it is on the gnd in STP tonight (unless there is another one on the gnd at RST)

[400A]

Originally Posted by BuickCFI

actually it is 595nd and it is on the gnd in STP tonight (unless there is another one on the gnd at RST)

596ND is here in RST, departing at 9 am I beieve (smiling at the desk girls gets you a lot of info ).

Those things have bigger TVs than my man cave!

[Blip16]

Originally Posted by 400A

596ND is here in RST, departing at 9 am I beieve (smiling at the desk girls gets you a lot of info ).

Those things have bigger TVs than my man cave!

well, i guess we are getting 2 semis then!