Yet another logging time question

If I am flying with a sole-manipulator, non-instrument rated pilot, in his aircraft, under an IFR flight plan conducted VMC, how is time logged?

As best as I can tell, I must be acting PIC (my name is on the flight plan). As sole manipulator in category and class, he is in the clear to log PIC. I would assume that I need to log something for the flight, which I would guess would be PIC as well? (Okay, it would be easier for me to tell him to put on the foggles. But assuming he didn't. )

Are you a II?

If so, PIC with dual given for you and PIC for him.

Edit: If you are not a II then I am unsure how this would play out. Considering that filing an IFR plan would likely fall into instrument instruction. If this is the case then I would say you are PIC when you fly and he is PIC when he is flying. Either way I am not certain and will yield to further knowledge when it is presented.

I am not a II. No instruction given. For what it is worth, there is a somewhat legitimate reason for filing IFR (crossing the ADIZ and departing Bravo). For all the trouble of filing DVFR, might as well just file IFR. I'm the only one legal in category and class to do so.

As for splitting the time, I don't think that works. If you are acting PIC, you must act PIC the entire flight. From what I read in 61.51, I can act PIC, but not log PIC (which makes little sense). The "more than one required crewmember" seems to the only case where "acting PIC" means also "logging PIC." Obviously, wearing the foggles solves this. I would assume that being IMC does as well.

As I understand it, as I'm required for the safety of the flight, I can log PIC under FAR 1.1. I just can't use that PIC time towards any rating or certificate under 61.51.

Here's another one - can I log instrument time as sole manipulator of an aircraft I don't have category and class ratings in? I can't find anything in part 61 to say that I can't, just that I can't log SIC or PIC.

You are the PIC so of course you log it as such.

A non-instrument rated pilot taking instrument flight instruction, if rated in the aircraft, may log PIC based on the "sole manipulator of the controls" rule. Since there is nothing in the rules that addresses meteorological conditions, the pilot may even log PIC while in the clouds.

The other pilot logs PIC under the "sole manipulator" provision.


Strangely enough, you log nothing. There is mo box in 61.51 that you fit in as the non-flying PIC on a flight that requires only one pilot. One of those real oddities - the real PIC gets to log no flight time.

Fail on my part.

You aren't acting as an instructor so you can't log PIC. No soup for you.

But you are the acting PIC.

I am pretty sure it can be logged, it just can not be logged and counted towards any certificate or rating (61.51).

And Flight Time

I'm the pilot, it is flight time, and I'm the PIC. It has to be logged as something. (total time seems kosher, so does instrument time if it is actual, and ASEL too).

Well, if I am not counting that time towards any certificate or rating, or currency, it would seem to be okay. (It is still PIC time. Let's say my insurance company wanted so much PIC time in type, I would think that would be cool).

So I guess you need to make sure the pilot flying is flying solely by reference to instruments, which makes you be a safety pilot, and thus a required crewmember acting PIC. Regs don't say anything about a hood being required.

It's not like the autopilot won't be on for 99% of the flight anyway, I guess you just need to make sure the pilot flying doesn't look out the window.

You can split the time, but you are correct that the acting PIC doesn't change during flight. Let's say you fly the first hour (sole manipulator) and your friend flies the second hour (sole manipulator). In this case, you would be ACTING as PIC the whole flight, but you would log 1 hr, PIC, instrument, whatever, and your friend would log 1 hr.

No sweat!

And oddly enough, while your friend being under the foggles does solve the problem and you both log PIC, just being in IMC doesn't. I know, stupid rules, but with foggles you do have to have the safety pilot and without the foggles you don't, so the safety pilot isn't a required crewmember if you're "just" IMC.

I disagree on that one. The safety pilot would still be required. If you are in less than VFR minimums, you are by definition in IMC. You still need to maintain a visual lookout though, even if you are below VFR minimums.

I don't think a "required crewmember" can become not required while in flight anyway.

The FARs do not define "actual instrument time." They define instrument time only as flight time solely by reference to instruments. I would argue that you still need someone looking out the window (if only to notice that there is traffic when you pop out of a cloud - hard to do with a hood on). Or if you are going in and out of low Cumulus clouds, what are you supposed to do? Keep a stopwatch to differentiate hood from actual? In the real world that gets "guesstimated" anyway. And I've never seen two pilots "guesstimate" the same way.

Ok, I'll bite. You're correct that the regs only define instrument time. But just because you're below VFR minimums does not mean you're in IMC. It means you have to follow instrument flight rules. Example: You're in other than Class A or B airspace, and you're 200ft above a cloud. Definitely below VFR minimums, but as long as visibility is greater than 3sm, you're still not in IMC.

While someone is under the hood, I think we all agree a safety pilot is required and can log the PIC time (with some restrictions). As far as going in and out of clouds with a hood on... I don't think anyone is going to be nitpicking that time or able to prove you fudged it if you did. Guestimate it and be done.

As far as the required crew member going away during flight, while the sole manipulator is under the hood, you're a required crewmember as a safety pilot. When the person takes the hood off, under what regulation are you a required crewmember?

Yes, log anything you feel like if you aren't using it for FAA purposes. You are the legal or "acting" PIC.

A safety pilot is only needed when operating under simulated instrument flight. Not when flying with instrument reference only. I have primary students doing that everyday but it can't be logged as actual or simulated instrument flying. But does anyone have an FAA definition for simulated instrument flight? If not, one could get creative irate:

This situation bring up a weird scenario. What if this was a twin and the pilot was nonrated in it but was the sole manipulator. Who logs that?

Sure, so's logging time in seat 17B. You only have to watch out that the FAA, if it for some reason wants to examine your logbook, doesn't think you were logging it for something that counts. You might try a column that's simply acting PIC time (obviously not for 17B ). But I'd leave it out of total flight time since that's a "countable for something" column.

Well, in 1984, the FAA Chief Counsel told us that

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"Simulated" instrument conditions occur when the pilot's vision outside of the aircraft is intentionally restricted, such as by a hood or goggles
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and in 2009, the FAA tossed the phrase "or under simulated conditions using a view-limiting device," all over Part 61.

So I guess you're welcome to be as creative as you think will get bay.

There's actually a document that is supposedly an FAA Chief Counsel opinion letter that addresses this. I say supposedly because the source is someone who worked for the FAA, but I don't know of anyone who's been able to really verify its authenticity . I call it the "only rated pilot on board" theory:

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June 22, 1977

Mr. Thomas Beane

Dear Mr. Beane:

This letter is in response to your recent letters to the FAA Flight Standards Service and to the Chief Counsel inquiring about the logging of pilot-in-command (PIC) time by an airman whenever he is not the sole manipulator of the controls.


Section 1.1 of the Federal Aviation Regulations defines Pilot in Command as:

Pilot in command means the person who:

(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight; (2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and (3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.

Section 61.51(c)(2) of the Federal Aviation Regulations provides, in pertinent part:

(2) Pilot-in-Command flight time.

(I) A private or commercial pilot may log as pilot in command time only that flight time during which he is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which he is rated, or when he is the sole occupant of the aircraft, or when he acts as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

A pilot may log PIC time in accordance with Section 61.51(c)(2)(I) when he is not actually "flying the airplane", if the airplane is one on which more than one pilot is required under its type certificate or under the regulations under which the flight is conducted and he is acting as PIC. Also, a pilot, rated in category and class (e.g. airplane single-engine) could, as the pilot who "Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight" log PIC time if another pilot, not appropriately rated, was actually manipulating the controls of the aircraft.

It should be noted that more than one pilot may log PIC time for the same flight time. For example, one pilot receiving instruction may log PIC time in accordance with paragraph (c)(2)(I) for the time he is designated PIC, and another pilot may log PIC time in accordance with (c)(2)(iii) for the same time during which he is actually giving flight instruction.

We hope that we have satisfactorily responded to your inquiry on the proper logging of PIC time.

Sincerely,

ORIGINAL SIGNED BY EDWARD P. FABERMAN

for NEIL R. EISNER Acting Assistant Chief Counsel Regulations & Enforcement Division Office of the Chief Counsel -
==============================

Thanks for the letter.

Is the following still referring to an airplane in which more than one pilot is required under its type certificate?

If yes, than it does not relate to the ASEL only pilot manipulating the controls on a AMEL with a rated pilot (in a single-pilot operation) who is PIC. So the FAA didn't answer the question.

If no and it refers to any single-pilot airplane, then the two people could be logging PIC time all the time. "I'll be the PIC and you manipulate." And this would go against 61.51 about logging PIC time. The actual PIC isn't doing anything listed that could be logged as PIC in 61.51

Thirdly, I could be putting too much thought into something that would probably never happen.

You got everything right up until this part. Your assumption is incorrect. You are indeed acting as PIC, but you don't need to log anything. And in the scenario you described, there really isn't anything that you can legally log. Since the pilot flying isn't under the hood, the operation only requires one pilot. Since the person who is sole manipulator can legally log the time, you cannot.

Its important to remember that when it comes to logging time, the blade swings both ways. Sometimes you can legally log PIC even though you cannot legally act as PIC. Sometimes you can't legally log anything even though you are acting as the only legal PIC.

All of the above assumes that you are not a CFII and you were flying an aircraft in a category and class for which you were both rated and which does not require more than one pilot.

Its only cool as long the FAA never gets your logbook and the other pilots logbook in the same room at the same time. IOW, it doesn't hurt anyone to log it and it might very well happen all the time. But that doesn't make it legal (and its not legal).

Absolutely they can. When pilot A (sole manipulator) is under the hood, pilot B (safety pilot) is a required crew member. The moment pilot A lifts the hood, pilot B becomes a passenger and nothing more as far as logging the time goes.

Remember midlife, best definitions created by pilots. In this case, beagle, you me and midlife could go flying in 2.5 SM visibility. I will be your II (assuming I had my II) and log as dual given, you be PIC and log as PIC, and midlife can sit in the back and be lookout while logging safety pilot.

A revolutionary way to log and split pilot time and really save some dough!

Edit: Midlife you should really add a page for these on your site.

You don't have to be a II to give instrument instruction; you only need one to give instrument instruction for an instrument rating. If the OP was a CFI-A he can log PIC, the other pilot just cannot count it toward an IA. Otherwise, it's just two pilots flying an airplane in a one-pilot operation.