Discussion in 'Airline Pilots' started by Derg, May 15, 2012.
From DALPA Central Air Safety Committee:
thanks for the heads up @Derg.
The problem with this is pilots will be motivated to file ASAP's and take action against the controllers when ATC makes a minor screw up. We save their butts as much as they save ours. And this is coming from someone who used to work at LA Tracon for pete's sake.
I hate this...Youve just crossed 5 aircraft, all trying to check in at the same time, and we are pointing at the ramp we need to go to, on the taxiway we were cleared to join. Why dont you just tell us to monitor....Im writing my congressman.
@DE727UPS I agree. However, I think the big problem comes from above.
The Feds need to understand that they're not dealing with robots. Even if we were 100% infallible robots, does anyone have a damned Zoomba that works worth a crap!?
Make a 20 degree error in your heading and lose your career.
Make a $2 billion dollar "oops" as a CEO of an accounting firm and, well, here's your multi-million dollar golden parachute before you head off to become the CEO of Yahoo!
This is absolute horse dung. I had this happen to me as well. (except I didn't get a PD)
I'm sorry if my flying through your airspace isn't important enough to hand off between your Scrabble moves at 3am. ATC not giving a hand off is no way shape or form pilot responsibility.
Querying ATC after a few minutes of dead air is a nicety, not a requirement. Well at least according to the WP-40 chapter 15.
This is why you should file an ASAP when you have any doubt that there was any kind of deviation. If the tapes show that you were aware there was a problem, the PD will stick, and your "aware clock" will already be run out.
File an ASAP. It doesn't cost anything, and it protects you.
And people learn from your (or others) mistakes. I've had at least two ASAPs I've filed result in noticeable changes to our 10-7/9 pages. I'm happy the ASAP program kept my crew and I out of hot water. But even better I'm glad that it has kept others from making the same mistakes (hopefully).
If my union dues only went to fund an ASAP program, it would be money well spent.
Word around the water cooler is that it is becoming a huge 'administrative burden' ( @CAPIP1998 and @bareman are going to try to beat the snot out of me for using that term) on the FAA with these actions.
With that said, guess what is the root cause for this change in attitude by the FAA was? The leadership G.W.B. put in place within the FAA and their lack of respect for a just safety culture within the agency. Hopefully, under new leadership it starts turning around.
If I filed an ASAP every time I didn't hear anyone on the radio for 15 mins and didn't query, I'd have to file about 10 a day. The other option would be to annoy the living crap out of ATC.
I know of an instance where a crew departed LAX, only to find out a full month later that LAX Tower had filed a PD against them for taking off without a clearance. Thankfully their ASAP reports were accepted since they filed within 48 hours of finding out about it. Crew wasn't given a PD.
Strange thing is, the crew claims they were cleared for takeoff...and upon hearing a recording they had obtained from LiveATC, there's a 2 min 28 second gap between transmissions. Now I don't know about you, but I've never heard a 2.5 min gap in talking at LAX.
This is going to create a huge pile of BS paperwork.....both the ATC requirement to file MOR's on anything, regardless of whether the controller thought it was a problem or not; which causes the above quoted in order for pilots to have to cover their butts from the possibility of a PD they may not know about.
Both of which should be wholly unnecessary.
Lol reminds me of a time a pilot who I personally know, had a beef with a controller, and ran their complaint up the food chain. The controller in question was also the facility manager. Mysteriously the tapes from said incident disappeared when an inquiry was started. Suffice it to say that controller is done.
It's crap like this that torques me off. Controllers, particularly at larger airports, often expect you to know what you're supposed to be doing. This crew probably thought they'd get chewed out by stopping in the middle of a taxiway.
Actually, this just happened to me in JFK after landing at 0500L. The controller told us to join a taxiway and monitor the frequency. Nothing about taxiing to the ramp. When I asked (hey, I'm new to JFK), I got a pretty sharp response back from the controller, who apparently expected us to taxi to the ramp without any sort of instruction. Oookay. Potential PD if you don't ask, tongue lashing if you do.
Well, if it were actually in the interest of safety, or identifying problems in the system - possibly a good idea.
If it results unnecessary carpet dances (which it will), maybe should be thought out a bit more.
All three of the above examples have happened to me, and I'm sure everyone else too.
Ridiculous. So basically we're going to have to file an ASAP just about every flight, to cover your ass just in case the supervisor on duty didn't like something that you did.
This is BS.
They should make it a FAR or put it in the 7110.65 that controllers are required to tell you when there was a possible pilot deviation, because with this new policy we aren't even being allowed to defend ourselves in the form of an ASAP (or NASA report).
Sometimes pilot deviations are justified, but other times I think it's appropriate to chalk it up to happens, especially in the case of a malfunctioning autopilot. Like @Derg said, we aren't robots, we're human and we make mistakes. happens.
But in this case, it's BS that ATC management came up with, causing pilots to have to react to cover their butts, thus creating nothing but reams of paperwork. A controller should be able to determine what needs reporting and what doesn't, and oftentimes, so-called "no harm, no foul" issues are quickly resolved at the pilot-controller level. That's where those need to remain. This isnt going to be anything more than a bureaucratic mess of work for both sides.
It sounds to me that it is more to find controller screw ups - the PD's are an unfortunate byproduct
With the as-described method they're going about it, that very well could be. Bureaucratic crap from the facility management, it would seem, begetting a number of other problems.
Can you hear me now?....GOOOD!
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