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In cruise flight along the Atlantic Route

Discussion in 'You're the captain...' started by Derg, Nov 12, 2003.

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  1. Derg Major Domo

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    You're flying from Fort Lauderdale, FL to Boston, MA on an AR route, just offshore.

    You have level four thunderstorms to the west and there is a large system of cells to your north.

    You ask air traffic control for a 25 degree turn to the east to avoid an area of severe weather and you are denied because of an active warning area.

    Taking a peek at the weather radar, it looks like if do conducted a 180 and flew another 70 miles to the south, you'd be able to circumnavigate the area of weather, but then you'd arrive at BOS "fuel critical", plus the weather at BOS is going to require an instrument approach.

    The weather in your immediate vicinity doesn't seem scattered enough to 'pick your way' through the cells. They also have a vast amount of vertical development so your chances of climbing over them are slim to none (as usual).

    So captain, what do you do?
    Derg, Nov 12, 2003
    #1

  2. Tim New Member

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    Re: In cruise flight long the Atlantic Route

    Ask the color what he is seeing on his radar and try to compare the two. Offer again your suggestion for a best heading and then see what he counters with. Between the 2 the is got to be happy area. Remind him the storms are Level 4 and you cant get over them either. Be proactive but encourage his imput and you might get what you want
    Tim, Nov 12, 2003
    #2

  3. Derg Major Domo

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    Re: In cruise flight long the Atlantic Route

    On an IFR flight plan, as far as I've seen, ATC cannot clear you into an active warning area.
    Derg, Nov 12, 2003
    #3

  4. pavelump Well-Known Member

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    Re: In cruise flight long the Atlantic Route

    Call the airline's dispatcher/metorologist and see about a new route with a short stop to fuel up. I'm sure people would be pissed, but that's better than dead right?

    Dave
    pavelump, Nov 12, 2003
    #4

  5. I_Money Moderator

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    Re: In cruise flight long the Atlantic Route

    Where exactly are the thunderstorms - around SC?? What is the weather like at alternates/route of flight after the thunderstorms??

    If the storms are South, and it is clear for the last 1000 miles into BOS, I would do the 180, and monitor fuel on the way in if the route and alternate looks good!
    I_Money, Nov 12, 2003
    #5

  6. flyguy New Member

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    Re: In cruise flight long the Atlantic Route

    Just plow right through them full speed ahead. [IMG] [IMG]

    Actually I haven't learned enough about weather to play this time so I'll see what everyone else comes up with.
    flyguy, Nov 12, 2003
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  7. C650CPT Well-Known Member

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    Re: In cruise flight long the Atlantic Route

    Doug
    I had this situation a few months ago flying back from Cuba, the wx kept pushing me east, I ended up past thier radar range and I assume they just coordinated with the controlling authority of the Warning Areas. I don't know if I was actually in the WA or not, but if I wasn't I was close, Another variable is I was flying a Military plane maybe that got me some leeway.

    To answer the question though I try to make WX deviation decisions as far out as possible. A last minute look at the big radar picture prior to take off and listening to ATC and how they are routing other flights usually gives me a pretty good idea of how I can successfully negotiate a wx obstacle. I have only done a 180 once and that was working center they were dogmatic about vectoring me over Orlando VOR, even though I had already passed the abeam point, so once clear of the wx they turned us all but 180 direct ORL then on course.
    C650CPT, Nov 13, 2003
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  8. Derg Major Domo

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    Re: In cruise flight long the Atlantic Route

    Cuba? Hauling back some cee-gars? [IMG]

    Anyway, I don't know what the 'right' answer is, but I do know this evening, I heard probably ten or fifteen aircraft do the same exact thing.

    Now isn't THAT murky? [IMG]
    Derg, Nov 13, 2003
    #8

  9. C650CPT Well-Known Member

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    Re: In cruise flight long the Atlantic Route

    Clear as Mud ... there is no right answer.

    Who me cigars ... sir I don't know how they got in my flight bag ...honest. Oh and that Havana Club Rum, by the way the best Rum I've never had, don't know how that got in there either. I actually can't get either item in Cuba as we land at Gitmo and they are tight as a drum right now.
    C650CPT, Nov 13, 2003
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  10. Derg Major Domo

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    Re: In cruise flight long the Atlantic Route

    Since I'm going away for a couple days this weekend for "Dougfest in LAS" as some of my users call it, I'll tell you what I heard being done that night.

    The weather was so bad along the eastern seaboard, I heard aircraft after aircraft beg ATC for turns to the east to circumnavigate the weather to no avail.

    "Center, XYZ flight 123 squawking seven-seven-zero-zero, turning right to a heading of 010, will offset course by two zero miles anticipate back on course in six zero miles".

    Lots of pilots chose that method this evening.

    It is right? Is it wrong? Who knows!
    Derg, Nov 13, 2003
    #10

  11. Kristie The cats meow.....

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    What is an active warning area?
    Kristie, Nov 13, 2003
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  12. C650CPT Well-Known Member

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    Re: In cruise flight long the Atlantic Route

    Doug
    When I was checking out of the Luxor yesterday, I was going to leave you a present (cee-gar type as you say), but they didn't have you registered, I guess next time.

    Jim
    C650CPT, Nov 14, 2003
    #12

  13. NJA_Capt No Longer Visits JetCareers

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    Climb to FL470 or FL490, bob and weave a little bit, and land with more fuel than planned in BOS. [IMG]

    Something to consider is whether the a/c has the overwater gear to be more than 50-100+nm offshore. I'm not sure which AR you're talking about. We usually us AR1/14 with landfall at DIX. Routes we use North of ORF aren't very far off shore.
    NJA_Capt, Nov 14, 2003
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  14. raysalmon New Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    What is an active warning area?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    An area off the coast that the Navy plays with its guns in.

    Ray
    raysalmon, Nov 14, 2003
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  15. ready2fly Well-Known Member

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    Re: In cruise flight long the Atlantic Route

    [ QUOTE ]
    Doug
    When I was checking out of the Luxor yesterday, I was going to leave you a present (cee-gar type as you say), but they didn't have you registered, I guess next time.

    Jim

    [/ QUOTE ]
    He registers under the sudo name - Lenny Kravitz. [IMG]
    ready2fly, Nov 14, 2003
    #15

  16. flyguy New Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    What is an active warning area?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    An area off the coast that the Navy plays with its guns in.

    Ray

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Hahaha, good description! Mind if I use those words in my PPL oral check? [IMG]
    flyguy, Nov 14, 2003
    #16

  17. IrishSheepdog Neighborhood Watch

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    I probably wouldn't do the 7700 thing, since I'd be afraid it might bite me in the ass later. They'd ask "why didn't you divert south?" My take would be to do the 180, and see if we could get around the weather to the west. If I should see that we aren't making good progress and are going to eat deeply into our reserve fuel (more than 5-10 minutes) I'd get on the horn with dispatch and request an alternate for fuel. Refuel, and hopefully be able to keep that arrival slot. I hesitate to head into the warning area, especially in this day and age. Even under 7700 and in an airliner.
    IrishSheepdog, Nov 16, 2003
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  18. Snow New Member

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    Hum, I'd consider punching through and dodging storms as best as possible, I'm sure the plane could take it, afterall 30 year old Lockeed Electrias punch through huricanes on a regular basis. My room mate was faced with a simular situation, a 60,000ft thunderstorm dead ahead and they couldn't go around it because they were in a narrow 'airway' of international airspace in between two less than friendly countries, they had no option but to tighten the belts and ride it out. This was in a P-3 Orion, although I would imagine the cost of fixing the broken radar dome and un-denting the wings from hail damage was costly. Hum... I went through a big thunderstorm in a DC-10 once, that was kinda fun, like a rollercoaster ride, rock concert and light show all thrown into one.

    Actually I think I'd call up dispatch for a call on that one, would they lose more money from turning around or fixing the hail damage? I don't see the plane being in any real danger as long as turbulance penetration speed was maintained and you had plenty of altitude.
    Snow, Nov 17, 2003
    #18

  19. jtrain609 Well-Known Member

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    What do you think costs more? To replace the plane or put some more gas in it?

    If you fly into a thunderstorm and come out the other side you are one lucky guy as far as I'm concerned.

    BTW Manuvering speed for an airliner does not mean the same thing as a Cessna. There are different certification criteria and airliners (certified under FAR Part 25 I believe) don't have to be able to hold together almost no matter what at manuvering speed. A full control input at that speed can still rip your wings off (as the poor guys in that A300 over New York found out about).

    Cheers


    John Herreshoff
    jtrain609, Nov 17, 2003
    #19

  20. IrishSheepdog Neighborhood Watch

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    Not even worrying about structural intergrity, also worry about the condition of your passengers and crew in the back. Excessive turbulence can so some major damage to the bodies in the back. Even moderate turbulence can cause injury. Stay away from T-storms!
    IrishSheepdog, Nov 17, 2003
    #20
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