Duty Time Question

Alrighty here is the question.

Duty time. What in your opinion is the correct definition? I have a situation I am trying to work out where I can work for our company (non-flying position) on the days where I am not flying because there tends to be a lot of time in between my trips. This would allow me to make some extra money that I really do need. However, some of the upper management, not all, are saying that if I were working this position that if I were called on a pop-up trip, it would count as part of my duty time for the pilot position.

Myself I can not find any information in the FAR's that support what they are saying. It would seem to me that since they are completely different positions, duty time has no correlation with the flying position.

I would really appreciate some input, and if you have any hard evidence to support this ( ie FARS) that would be even better.

Thanks JCR"s!

You are either on duty as a pilot or you are not. If you are not on duty as a pilot the FAA could give two craps about what you do during your "rest" period. You can work another part/full time job during your off time, or you can actually sleep. In other words, so as long as you are free from responsibility at the place of employment in question, the FAA doesn't care what you do.

That being said, if you are on call 24/7, waiting by the phone for a pop-up trip, you are always on duty, never free from responsibility, and you/company are in violation of the legal rest periods you are required to fly depending under which FAR you operate.

Think of it as the beer test. If you can turn your cell phone off and drink a beer you are in rest. If you cannot because you may get a phone call from someone at the company, and may be expected to fly, for some reason or another, you are not in a rest period.

PS- Just because you are Part 91 doesn't mean your life, and the lives of your pax are any less important. Demand flight/duty restrictions with defined rest periods. Best way to introduce this is with a Flight Ops/Gen Ops manual.

Goodluck

Yeah ok. Theres the rules written in black and white and then theres the reality that as a pilot you are nothing but a replaceable liability that depends on a paycheck to survive.

There is a large freight company where non-union management pilots are known to be called when necessary at night to fly in spite of them doing a desk job during the day. The desk job is aviation related though the company does not consider it duty. The company could care less until the FAA steps in and the FAA seems to care less. I've heard the new flight duty time regs have somehow tightened up this language (though it doesn't apply to freight or 91 ops).

To the OP, I would give the local FAA a call and ask what they think. If they say no, I'd keep it to yourself and try to win the battle in house. If they say yes, then it would help your case. Be safe and use good judgment with respect to your rest. If the company won't let you work for them, you might just work somewhere else. I would think it would be smart for them to keep you in house and happy.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...nterpretations/data/interps/2011/Robinson.pdf

Here is the PDF for the Legal Interpretation to Mr. Jim Mayors:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org.../interpretations/data/interps/2009/Mayors.pdf

I think they (the management) are right. See "actual work for a certificate holder"... Is the certificate holder the one employing you for the extra work?

Not sure what you're getting at. Ignore duty rules and just keep working or lose your job? If that's the case, find a new employer. As Mike stated above, if I can't turn my phone off and crack a beer at some point during a 24hr period, than something is wrong.

Im not saying my job but the cut throat 135 business in general. Im saying standard ops for more than several big 135 companies have differing views than whats laid out in some lawyers interpretation. Till the FAA comes down hard on industry practices, its hard to tell what is and isnt kosher with the feds. Till then just do the best you can.

Rest only has to be 8 hours. According to our GOM, its 12 hours bottle to throttle. Its a good thing I dont drink

you get the point of that argument...

It is pretty clear, if you are assigned to do anything by your company (answering calls, pushing a mop) it is duty.

24/7 on call is the same thing but a whole different Pandora's Box, in relation to your question.

Good luck, my current job doesn't ask me to do anything dicey or illicit, however I've worked for places that have. 24hr on call is incredibly prevalent - especially in the on demand or charter world.

Yeah I'm aware it's prevalent in the charter and on demand world, but that's still pretty rough and shady. If you're not on duty but you're not on rest, than what are you? If I can't crack a beer because my employer wants me available 24/7, than at some point duty hours have to be burned. Now as I said, I understand that's not realistic in the on demand world when it may be one flight crew for an owner, and the owner wants them 24/7 ready to go, however that doesn't mean I agree with that policy. At some point there has to be a defined hard time off, which is your time and your time only. I love flying corporate but I don't think I'd survive long if someone wanted me available 24/7/365.

Remember also, you are not keeping track of duty time, it is rest time that is specified. You can do what you want on YOUR rest, but you should also be a professional, and show up for your trip as rested as possible - plan accordingly. If I was paying someone a salary to fly my airplane and they are getting head bobs/ yawning/ etc, I would have the individual on a very short leash.

Not true exactly. You can do almost anything you want, except work for the certificate holder that you're flying for. You can work another job, if you want, but it can't be for the certificate holder. This way you can't be coerced into working an "optional" job for your boss.

Missed only by omission. You are correct. Also, if you work another flying job of course that all has to be reported too.

If you can't have a beer, or you need to ask permission to take your SO to dinner, you're on duty. The problem with all of this, is the majority of the time people are afraid to let their POI know about it because they are afraid that they will in essence be ratting themselves out, and face certificate action. They are also afriad that if they do either let the POI know, or quit, they will tarnish their good record of holding a clean employment/certificate record.

It's a loosing battle for the pilots no matter what way you slice it.

That's interesting, because office work is considered "duty" at our place. Really limits what someone can do before a flight.

Same thing here. I work in the mx hangar some days and fly some others. I always log the mx work as duty and make sure I leave at an appropriate time if I have a flight the next morning.
Also for some of the other posters in this thread, part of the Mayors interpretation is that this whole "not on rest, but not on duty" thing is BS. If you are not on rest, you are on duty. I wish that come Monday morning every DO at every scuzzbag 135 outfit that practices 24/7 on call would come to work and find that interpretation nailed to their door, along with a note from the FSDO that their operating certificate is null and void if they don't cease and desist from practicing 24/7 on call. But, that won't happen I suppose.

Nothing surprises me anymore. I personally have had hotel security break into my room to do a "welfare check" and when he left he told me to call crew scheduling.

If the possibility exists that you may require putting on pants...you're on duty.