Is this Kosher?

4jul1776 · December 5th, 2006, 08:47

I saw this narrative in an ad for a Cherokee 140.

"The legal logged engine hours is 2209.0. The engine had a camshaft failure 902.0 hours ago. The engine had to be rebuilt which included ; rebuilt cylinders with new valves and guides, new cam and lifters, and crank case remachined and checked, crank shaft magnafluxed and checked, all new bearings and seals. All work was done by G & N Aircraft Engines, and all paperwork, yellow tags and work orders are in the log books. The owner at the time was short on money, so he did not have the accessories overhauled. By not overhauling the accessories this repair could not be logged as an overhauled engine. Since the repair one mag has been replaced, the other repaired. The ignition harness has been replaced and the alternator repaired. At last annual the cylinder compressions were all in the high 70's, and no metal was found in the oil or filter. This engine burns no oil and runs great."

It sounds fishy to me, but I was wondering what the fiancial and regulatory requirements would be to operate this plane. Thanks for your help.

PacMan4x4 · December 5th, 2006, 12:42

4JUL....the problem we begin with is the FAA, lack of detailed definition for what "overhauled" means. During an overhaul, the engine repair facility--G&N in this case can make the determination on what they will do for an overhaul. There are separate overhaul requirements for the components on engines/aircraft. The engine itself (cases, cam, crank, cylinders, and accessory drive case) in this case would have been torn down, inspected to used limits--since they don't have to use new limits--G&N would do an inpsection on the items and replace those only needing replaced that were damaged beyond limits. For this instance, they replaced major items of the engine and it would have been tested before being deemed overhauled.
Accessories are just that...accessories and don't require to be changed at an overhaul. You can take your personal engine at TBO and have the repair facility to the teardown and only repair/replace items out of tolerences. By taking your engine in and getting the same one back (since you know the condition if it as an operator), you can definitely save a lot of money by not have all extra accessories overhauled. Your altenator may be perfectly fine, so there is no need to pay for someone to tear it apart and build it back up, needlessly. But, 200 hours later you may need to pull the altenator for overhaul because you started having probs. That is a gamble you would take by saving money during the overhaul, but you would already know it's a possibility.
On the flip side....due to liability reasons....if you were to take your engine in and give to them and say I want that one that's already done sitting in the crate in the corner, you can be pretty certain that you will get an engine that have been completely overhualed as you were thinking overhauled meant. It will come with overahualed (yellow tagged) individual components--altenator, starter, cylinders, mags...etc--becuase the condition of them was truly unknown.
Clear as mud? Hope I've helped out a lil' bit anyway. So long story short....it is not fishy in this situation. The majority of components would still have been serviceable at the 1200 ish hour mark that the engine encountered an internal failure--no need to replace good parts.

Pac Man

4jul1776 · December 6th, 2006, 07:50

Pac man,

Wow.....

Thanks for the response. I'm still trying to pick through it. So I gather that I shouldnt treat this aircraft as a run out engine. It still has 1000 or so hours left in it with a partial overhaul sooner rather then later. Again, thanks for your help.

PacMan4x4 · December 6th, 2006, 09:48

4JUL....Personally, I wouldn't so much worry about the engine as the work that was done was what would get done during an overhaul anyway. There isn't much to the main part of the engine. Like I mentioned in the previous post--accessories are accessories....yes new, remanufactured, overhauled engines commonly come with yellow tags for all accessories being tested/inspected or rebuilt. This fella had a mid-time engine that had a camshaft failure. But, as a mechanic, and talking about the engine in question....I can replace accessories easily and not have to pay labor cost, so not having overhauled accessories isn't a big deal to me. For someone else buying an airplane, they may balk and move on to another deal. Not sure if you've seen an engine apart--not much too it internally. There are the crank cases, lifters, cam, and crank and accessory gear case. That's the down and dirty of it....the rest is external. When you take an engine in for an overhaul, they are going to split the cases and yank out the cam, crank, and lifters. The cam and crank will get inspected (NDI) and if good reinstalled. I would go out on a limb and say the lifters normally get replaced. All of the bearings and seals get replaced becuase its smart money. The cases would get inspected and the engine thrown back together. Mind you--I'm making it sound very generic and very simple, but it can be tedious is you have to start machining the crank, cases....etc
The work I mentioned is very similar to the engine you originally asked about, so it did have the major work done. You could also get the engine S/N an call G&N to inquire bout their services and if you were going to purchase this airplane, see what they have on file for this specific engine. They will be able to answer your concerns....hopefully. G&N has is a bigger company, so it's not like it's Joe-Bob's engine repair and crab shack :-) If that were the case, I would definitely call and do more follow up.
I was trying to find an old article I read about the top 3 engine facilities--Mattituck was one and I think LYCON was another....the third one eludes me at this time and their opinions on overhauls.....I can't seem to locate it.
Are you looking at buying this airplane or do you just fly it occasionally?

4jul1776 · December 8th, 2006, 07:46

Actually I was thinking of purchasing the aircraft. My hope was that people would get nervous with the TBO and pass on it without doing the research.. I know there are no deals in aviation, but that has to be one floating out there. Thanks for all your info, I really appreciate it.

MichaelCPS · December 8th, 2006, 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4jul1776

Actually I was thinking of purchasing the aircraft. My hope was that people would get nervous with the TBO and pass on it without doing the research.. I know there are no deals in aviation, but that has to be one floating out there. Thanks for all your info, I really appreciate it.

I advise you to treat the engine as run-out. I have no qualms about the engine being past TBO, and I am pretty sure it will continue for hundreds of hours with no problem, but the seller should not be able to sell it at a higher price because it "kinda" had an overhaul. A bank/finance company would treat this as a run out engine.

USMCmech · December 8th, 2006, 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4jul1776

"The legal logged engine hours is 2209.0. The engine had a camshaft failure 902.0 hours ago. The engine had to be rebuilt which included ; rebuilt cylinders with new valves and guides, new cam and lifters, and crank case remachined and checked, crank shaft magnafluxed and checked, all new bearings and seals. All work was done by G & N Aircraft Engines, and all paperwork, yellow tags and work orders are in the log books. The owner at the time was short on money, so he did not have the accessories overhauled. By not overhauling the accessories this repair could not be logged as an overhauled engine. Since the repair one mag has been replaced, the other repaired. The ignition harness has been replaced and the alternator repaired. At last annual the cylinder compressions were all in the high 70's, and no metal was found in the oil or filter. This engine burns no oil and runs great."

I'll translate.

"engine 2200 SNEW, 900 SMOH, full documentaion of overhaul."

No red flags that I see.

PacMan4x4 · December 9th, 2006, 01:49

Siegel sir....the engine isn't past TBO nor a run-out engine. Look at the work that was done. The engine received an overhaul due to the camshaft failure--not a "kinda" overhaul. Just because the accessories weren't individually overhauled doesn't mean the engine wasn't. The owner will have full documentation of the work (items inspected, replaced and tested) completed and it satisfies the requirement. If you were the owner of an airplane and had a good altenator, mags, starter...etc....would you really expect to pay for overhauled accessories when you were getting your same core engine back. You'd be pissin' money away, but that is the difference between giving your engine to a shop and getting it back 3 months later--you can do that. Most people opt to not wait that long and would rather spend the extra few thousand to have an engine right now. When they get an engine right now, it will have all new or overhauled accessories since the engine overhaul facility doesn't know the condition of an engine when it's brought to them. This fella that owns the airplane in our scenario knows what the condition is and the work completed was acceptable.

MichaelCPS · December 9th, 2006, 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by PacMan4x4

Siegel sir....the engine isn't past TBO nor a run-out engine. Look at the work that was done. The engine received an overhaul due to the camshaft failure--not a "kinda" overhaul. Just because the accessories weren't individually overhauled doesn't mean the engine wasn't. The owner will have full documentation of the work (items inspected, replaced and tested) completed and it satisfies the requirement. If you were the owner of an airplane and had a good altenator, mags, starter...etc....would you really expect to pay for overhauled accessories when you were getting your same core engine back. You'd be pissin' money away, but that is the difference between giving your engine to a shop and getting it back 3 months later--you can do that. Most people opt to not wait that long and would rather spend the extra few thousand to have an engine right now. When they get an engine right now, it will have all new or overhauled accessories since the engine overhaul facility doesn't know the condition of an engine when it's brought to them. This fella that owns the airplane in our scenario knows what the condition is and the work completed was acceptable.

Here is what I read:

"The owner at the time was short on money, so he did not have the accessories overhauled. By not overhauling the accessories this repair could not be logged as an overhauled engine."

Fine, I agree, it was overhauled. But it isn't in the logbooks as such. It will hurt the resale value of the aircraft unless the new buyer overhauls before reselling.

4jul1776 · December 12th, 2006, 03:28

Thanks for all the replies. Ill let you know what happens with the aircraft. Thanks again.

December 5th, 2006, 08:47	#1
4jul1776 Newbie Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 22	Is this Kosher? I saw this narrative in an ad for a Cherokee 140. "The legal logged engine hours is 2209.0. The engine had a camshaft failure 902.0 hours ago. The engine had to be rebuilt which included ; rebuilt cylinders with new valves and guides, new cam and lifters, and crank case remachined and checked, crank shaft magnafluxed and checked, all new bearings and seals. All work was done by G & N Aircraft Engines, and all paperwork, yellow tags and work orders are in the log books. The owner at the time was short on money, so he did not have the accessories overhauled. By not overhauling the accessories this repair could not be logged as an overhauled engine. Since the repair one mag has been replaced, the other repaired. The ignition harness has been replaced and the alternator repaired. At last annual the cylinder compressions were all in the high 70's, and no metal was found in the oil or filter. This engine burns no oil and runs great." It sounds fishy to me, but I was wondering what the fiancial and regulatory requirements would be to operate this plane. Thanks for your help. __________________ "The sky more than the sea, is terribly unforgiving of even the slightest mistake."

December 5th, 2006, 12:42	#2
PacMan4x4 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: OK City Posts: 462	Re: Is this Kosher? 4JUL....the problem we begin with is the FAA, lack of detailed definition for what "overhauled" means. During an overhaul, the engine repair facility--G&N in this case can make the determination on what they will do for an overhaul. There are separate overhaul requirements for the components on engines/aircraft. The engine itself (cases, cam, crank, cylinders, and accessory drive case) in this case would have been torn down, inspected to used limits--since they don't have to use new limits--G&N would do an inpsection on the items and replace those only needing replaced that were damaged beyond limits. For this instance, they replaced major items of the engine and it would have been tested before being deemed overhauled. Accessories are just that...accessories and don't require to be changed at an overhaul. You can take your personal engine at TBO and have the repair facility to the teardown and only repair/replace items out of tolerences. By taking your engine in and getting the same one back (since you know the condition if it as an operator), you can definitely save a lot of money by not have all extra accessories overhauled. Your altenator may be perfectly fine, so there is no need to pay for someone to tear it apart and build it back up, needlessly. But, 200 hours later you may need to pull the altenator for overhaul because you started having probs. That is a gamble you would take by saving money during the overhaul, but you would already know it's a possibility. On the flip side....due to liability reasons....if you were to take your engine in and give to them and say I want that one that's already done sitting in the crate in the corner, you can be pretty certain that you will get an engine that have been completely overhualed as you were thinking overhauled meant. It will come with overahualed (yellow tagged) individual components--altenator, starter, cylinders, mags...etc--becuase the condition of them was truly unknown. Clear as mud? Hope I've helped out a lil' bit anyway. So long story short....it is not fishy in this situation. The majority of components would still have been serviceable at the 1200 ish hour mark that the engine encountered an internal failure--no need to replace good parts. Pac Man

December 6th, 2006, 07:50	#3
4jul1776 Newbie Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 22	Re: Is this Kosher? Pac man, Wow..... Thanks for the response. I'm still trying to pick through it. So I gather that I shouldnt treat this aircraft as a run out engine. It still has 1000 or so hours left in it with a partial overhaul sooner rather then later. Again, thanks for your help. __________________ "The sky more than the sea, is terribly unforgiving of even the slightest mistake."

December 6th, 2006, 09:48	#4
PacMan4x4 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: OK City Posts: 462	Re: Is this Kosher? 4JUL....Personally, I wouldn't so much worry about the engine as the work that was done was what would get done during an overhaul anyway. There isn't much to the main part of the engine. Like I mentioned in the previous post--accessories are accessories....yes new, remanufactured, overhauled engines commonly come with yellow tags for all accessories being tested/inspected or rebuilt. This fella had a mid-time engine that had a camshaft failure. But, as a mechanic, and talking about the engine in question....I can replace accessories easily and not have to pay labor cost, so not having overhauled accessories isn't a big deal to me. For someone else buying an airplane, they may balk and move on to another deal. Not sure if you've seen an engine apart--not much too it internally. There are the crank cases, lifters, cam, and crank and accessory gear case. That's the down and dirty of it....the rest is external. When you take an engine in for an overhaul, they are going to split the cases and yank out the cam, crank, and lifters. The cam and crank will get inspected (NDI) and if good reinstalled. I would go out on a limb and say the lifters normally get replaced. All of the bearings and seals get replaced becuase its smart money. The cases would get inspected and the engine thrown back together. Mind you--I'm making it sound very generic and very simple, but it can be tedious is you have to start machining the crank, cases....etc The work I mentioned is very similar to the engine you originally asked about, so it did have the major work done. You could also get the engine S/N an call G&N to inquire bout their services and if you were going to purchase this airplane, see what they have on file for this specific engine. They will be able to answer your concerns....hopefully. G&N has is a bigger company, so it's not like it's Joe-Bob's engine repair and crab shack :-) If that were the case, I would definitely call and do more follow up. I was trying to find an old article I read about the top 3 engine facilities--Mattituck was one and I think LYCON was another....the third one eludes me at this time and their opinions on overhauls.....I can't seem to locate it. Are you looking at buying this airplane or do you just fly it occasionally?

December 8th, 2006, 07:46	#5
4jul1776 Newbie Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 22	Re: Is this Kosher? Actually I was thinking of purchasing the aircraft. My hope was that people would get nervous with the TBO and pass on it without doing the research.. I know there are no deals in aviation, but that has to be one floating out there. Thanks for all your info, I really appreciate it. __________________ "The sky more than the sea, is terribly unforgiving of even the slightest mistake."

December 9th, 2006, 01:49	#8
PacMan4x4 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: OK City Posts: 462	Re: Is this Kosher? Siegel sir....the engine isn't past TBO nor a run-out engine. Look at the work that was done. The engine received an overhaul due to the camshaft failure--not a "kinda" overhaul. Just because the accessories weren't individually overhauled doesn't mean the engine wasn't. The owner will have full documentation of the work (items inspected, replaced and tested) completed and it satisfies the requirement. If you were the owner of an airplane and had a good altenator, mags, starter...etc....would you really expect to pay for overhauled accessories when you were getting your same core engine back. You'd be pissin' money away, but that is the difference between giving your engine to a shop and getting it back 3 months later--you can do that. Most people opt to not wait that long and would rather spend the extra few thousand to have an engine right now. When they get an engine right now, it will have all new or overhauled accessories since the engine overhaul facility doesn't know the condition of an engine when it's brought to them. This fella that owns the airplane in our scenario knows what the condition is and the work completed was acceptable.

December 12th, 2006, 03:28	#10
4jul1776 Newbie Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 22	Re: Is this Kosher? Thanks for all the replies. Ill let you know what happens with the aircraft. Thanks again. __________________ "The sky more than the sea, is terribly unforgiving of even the slightest mistake."

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