TCAS in military jets?

[SkyFlier33]

Not sure where to post this, so let it be here.

Was on my solo x-county yesterday, part of the route was pretty close to a low MOA.
At some point I had 4 military jets (not sure of make and model, could've been T-45s) converging/approaching me head-on. ATC was issuing traffic advisories: 2 of them blasted by me like 700 below, two of them I never even saw - must've had lights-out I guess
My question is: 1) is it often that military low-altitude training is conducted outside of MOAs, and 2) do they have a radar or TCAS on board so see some small creeper like a C172 and not hit one?
As a student, will appreciate any input related to this matter

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by SkyFlier33

Not sure where to post this, so let it be here.

Was on my solo x-county yesterday, part of the route was pretty close to a low MOA.
At some point I had 4 military jets (not sure of make and model, could've been T-45s) converging/approaching me head-on. ATC was issuing traffic advisorie: 2 of them blasted by me like 700 below, two of them I never even saw - must've had lights-out I guess
My question is: 1) is it often that military low-altitude training is conducted outside of MOAs, and 2) do they have a radar or TCAS on board so see some small creeper like a C172 and not hit one?
As a student, will appreciate any input related to this matter

1) Yes. Lots of training low level on MTRs , or Military Training Routes. The thin lines on your sectional labeled as VR or IR XXX/XXXX. Also, in some areas outside of MTRs, there are areas designated as LATN or Low Altitude Tactical Navigation areas.

2) Many have radar, some have TCAS. But not all. Depends what you come across. Helos are even more low level, just not as fast.

[SkyFlier33]

MikeD, thanks for quick reply.

It was actually Sells Low MOA - you might be familiar with it. I was flying from Ryan to Gila Bend, and VR239-244 is the only MTR in the area that intersected with my route. I was way past it though when I saw those jets.
That's the reason why it came as a surprise to me.
I wonder what's the best course of action when flying in vicinity of MTR's or MOAs - since it's hard to spot those guys until they are pretty close, and since an MTR can be as wide as 16 NM, apparently.

[scooter2525]

Originally Posted by MikeD

1) Yes. Lots of training low level on MTRs , or Military Training Routes. The thin lines on your sectional labeled as VR or IR XXX/XXXX. Also, in some areas outside of MTRs, there are areas designated as LATN or Low Altitude Tactical Navigation areas.

2) Many have radar, some have TCAS. But not all. Depends what you come across. Helos are even more low level, just not as fast.

Why on the MTRs are there all those crazy angles?

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by SkyFlier33

MikeD, thanks for quick reply.

It was actually Sells Low MOA - you might be familiar with it. I was flying from Ryan to Gila Bend, and VR239-244 is the only MTR in the area that intersected with my route. I was way past it though when I saw those jets.
That's the reason why it came as a surprise to me.
I wonder what's the best course of action when flying in vicinity of MTR's or MOAs - since it's hard to spot those guys until they are pretty close, and since an MTR can be as wide as 16 NM, apparently.

Fly through there all the time. Thats where the LATN area is, the entire Sells MOA. That along with the numerous VRs that run through there. In the LATN area, it's low-level cleared all over the place. You HAVE to see and avoid, just as they do. Most common aircraft are A-10 and F-16s, with only the F-16s having radar and neither having TCAS.

MTRs can indeed be wide. Whats depicted on the sectional is only the centerline. They can be 5 miles left/ 5 miles right of it. Or 3 miles left/ 1 mile right, or any combo therein. MTRs can generally be avoided in altitude. If you're a few thousand AGL you're usually clear of them, as MTRs are low-level routes. For MOAs (if they're active), if at all possible, try to avoid them VFR, either under or around; it really makes things easy for everyone involved. It's perfectly legal to fly through them if you wish (but very risky), but if you call ATC and are advised that they're active and decide to go through VFR, maintain a good visual lookout. The aircraft within are usually doing simulated air-ground or air-air and their attention is focused on that......picking you up visually is usually by chance.

Let me give you an idea what it's like on my end with MTRs.

I was flying a low level along VR-239 a number of years back. Cruising at 480 KIAS and 500 AGL, I was doing the standard clock/map/ground as I navigated along and around the terrain on the route. Coming around turn point 4, I happened to spot, by luck, a Cessna 177 doing what appeared to be turns on/around a point at low level.....standard training. Glad I spotted him earlier, and no problem making a deviation around him, but had I not spotted him, it could've been a close call or worse. He was likely concentrating on his airwork, as I was mainly concentrating on map/ground, so it's even more luck that one of us spotted the other. I don't know if he ever saw me, but I doubt it, since I was at his 6-7 o'clock when I first spotted him, and lagged around his six to pass him by a good margin as he completed his left turn.

IMO, practicing airwork in a MOA or along a known MTR, anything where training is going on and full attention can't be maintained to the outside, is potential trouble waiting to happen.

Military Training Routes are usually never in "military-only areas" such as Restricted Areas, etc. As military pilots, we train like we fight; and if that means a 450 knot low-level ingress to a target, then that's what we do. There's a reason that MTRs in the USA are depicted on Sectional Aeronautical Charts and the US AP-1/B chart; that's so civilian pilots can plan around them, and either avoid them, or be able to be VERY heads-up if they must fly near them. When I say "must fly near them", I'm referring to some MTRs which come within (due to terrain) some small private, uncontrolled airstrips, such as those near ranches, etc. In these instances, civilians need to go in/out of these fields, and knowing the status of a particular MTR near you is important.

It's perfectly legal to fly through/in MOAs and along MTRs, but that's not the question. As you know, in VMC, it's everyone's responsibility to see and avoid.

But here's a good example of the problem: In the A-10, I had no radar for my low-levels, my only separation ability comes from the Mk.1 eyeball. Keep in mind, though, that I have a multitude of cockpit tasks going on while tooling along at 300 AGL/360 KIAS. First, eyeing terrain to make sure I'm doing my job of pilotage correctly (ie- matching terrain features with what's on my map to make sure I'm going the right way), avoiding hitting the ground/power lines/near rocks/far rocks, keeping track of my timing per leg [if I'm going for a specific TOT, or Time Over Target], keeping track of my other aircraft in my formation, insuring my weapons panel is set correctly [such as setup change from air-air to air-ground], going over and over in my mind what the attack plan is [formation, role, weapon, timing, attack axis], and being ready to flex to a different plan if the first one gets screwed up [such as unplanned threats pop-up], and maintaining overall SA over the operation; all while moving at 300 AGL/360 KIAS; and all this in addition to trying to see and avoid. Truth be told, we really expect (hope) that civilian pilots won't be in our path because they HAVE done the necessary pre-planning for their flights. Even in radar equipped fighters, the pilot isn't sitting with his head in his scope while tooling along at low level, so he may not notice civilian hits on his scope. In addition, some radars are even programmed to negate hits below certain airspeeds, in order to reduce the scope clutter. Also, at the speeds mentioned, I'm moving @6 miles/minute (A-10), or 8-9 miles/minute (other fighters); a Cessna 152 would probably be visibly detectable for only a couple of seconds before I flashed past it. Point? Everyone practice the best see-and-avoid they can; but also civilian pilots should be aware of where Military Training Routes are and, preferably, avoid them. Military pilots should know what their route structure is, and remain within it.

One of the problems too is all FSS will have is a scheduled entry and exit time for the route in question. The aircraft using the route make a one time call entering and a one time call exiting on 255.4, which is the general UHF FSS freq. FSS may or may not catch the call, so even if a route is scheduled to be active, there's no real way to confirm if it truly is, and even so, there's no real way to know where the aircraft are on the route, unless you have UHF capability. Many routes have restrictions placed into them for "remain above XXX AGL for noise sensitive area between point B and C".....things like that. But they are low-level training routes, so common-sense speaking, it's unlikely they'll be that high, AGL-wise. Still, it never hurts to avoid them laterally if at all possible; or if crossing them or near them, just keeping a little more of an eye out.

For the calls entering/exiting, most guys don't even know which FSS services the area in question, so the general call on 255.4 goes something like this: "Any radio, any radio, Grip 21 flight of 2 entering VR-244 point Bravo for the next 20 minutes". So, unless someone happens to:

1. Have UHF
2. Have been listening and caught the call
3. Know where the VR or IR route in question is located, &
4. Know where the individual entry/exit points are located....

...then the call won't be of much help.

On the altitudes, a good thing to know is the numbering system for MTRs, both VR and IR. If the MTR has a 3-digit number, ie- VR-244, IR-168, that means that there are segments along that route that have portions above 1500 AGL. If the MTR is 4-digit, ie- VR 1288, IR-1403; that means that there are no segments on that route that are above 1500 AGL.

PHX and TUS airspace (among others) is getting more and more crowded, that's part of the reason for the closure of Williams AFB. And I fully understand that airspace is getting smaller and smaller; hell, most of the state of Arizona is Special Use Airspace of some sort, just look at the PHX sectional. Hopefully, even as this happens, GA and military can still co-exist without conflict.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by scooter2525

Why on the MTRs are there all those crazy angles?

The turn points are generally prominent geographic landmarks, such as pinnacles, hilltops, etc. Stuff that won't usually change, such as man-made things.

[killbilly]

Mike,

That's great information...

Makes me kinda wish us civvies at least had a UHF receiver in the plane. If I was flying anywhere near an MTR, it'd be nice to know when you guys were ingress/egress on the route. Since they're well-defined on the sectional, it gives the civvie a reasonable area to look at, even if he's likely looking down.

Good stuff. Thanks.

[SkyFlier33]

This is exactly the kind of information I was looking for, that I couldn't get from my [civilian] instructor. It's great to know what kind of resources the military aircraft have for traffic information and collision avoidance, and what their limitations are, as well as ways GA pilots can mitigate the risk of mid-air collisions in areas like MOAs and MTRs. Thanks for a great post, MikeD!

In my case, I couldn't avoid intersecting that particular MTR, and even though I keep my head on a swivel all the time, I wouldn't have spotted those jets without ATC's advisory. But admittedly I didn't consider the possibility of flying at a higher cruising altitude to avoid any possible conflicts with the transitioning military aircraft.. Point taken, lesson learned

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by SkyFlier33

This is exactly the kind of information I was looking for, that I couldn't get from my [civilian] instructor. It's great to know what kind of resources the military aircraft have for traffic information and collision avoidance, and what their limitations are, as well as ways GA pilots can mitigate the risk of mid-air collisions in areas like MOAs and MTRs. Thanks for a great post, MikeD!

That's what I'm here for, to help. Your CFI likely just didn't know because he doesn't have that perspective; as it's not common knowledge to many civilians. Not a knock on him or a lack of ability at all.

In my case, I couldn't avoid intersecting that particular MTR, and even though I keep my head on a swivel all the time, I wouldn't have spotted those jets without ATC's advisory. But admittedly I didn't consider the possibility of flying at a higher cruising altitude to avoid any possible conflicts with the transitioning military aircraft.. Point taken, lesson learned

Sometimes you can't avoid crossing them, but again you'd generally be above them in any normal operation. Still, keeping a head on a swivel is a must, as both military as well as civil traffic must still legally co-exist both inside some Special Use Airspace (MOAs) as well as outside it.

[killbilly]

Originally Posted by MikeD

Sometimes you can't avoid crossing them, but again you'd generally be above them in any normal operation. Still, keeping a head on a swivel is a must, as both military as well as civil traffic must still legally co-exist both inside some Special Use Airspace (MOAs) as well as outside it.

Mike,

Just curious. Could a civvie, if he was near an MTR, call in his location and heading to FSS and have FSS relay it to anyone on the UHF who might be using the MTR?

[Doug Taylor]

"We've got five Mig 31's, Mav! Do some of that pilot stuff"

"I'm on it Goose, I'll hit the brakes and he'll..." **TRAFFIC TRAFFIC** "...fly right by."

"We're goin'..." ***MONITOR VERTICAL SPEED*** "...ballistic, man!"

"I've got..." ***CLIMB CLIMB*** "...a missle lock! Fox..." ***CLEAR CONFLICT*** "...One!"

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by killbilly

Mike,

Just curious. Could a civvie, if he was near an MTR, call in his location and heading to FSS and have FSS relay it to anyone on the UHF who might be using the MTR?

You could. Haven't heard of that happening before. But again, FSS generally may not know if the scheduled aircraft have began the particular MTR or have even showed up, and definitely don't know where they are on the route.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

"We've got five Mig 31's, Mav! Do some of that pilot stuff"

"I'm on it Goose, I'll hit the brakes and he'll..." **TRAFFIC TRAFFIC** "...fly right by."

"We're goin'..." ***MONITOR VERTICAL SPEED*** "...ballistic, man!"

"I've got..." ***CLIMB CLIMB*** "...a missle lock! Fox..." ***CLEAR CONFLICT*** "...One!"

Oh man that'd get annoying.....lol!

[SkyFlier33]

Originally Posted by MikeD

That's what I'm here for, to help. Your CFI likely just didn't know because he doesn't have that perspective; as it's not common knowledge to many civilians. Not a knock on him or a lack of ability at all.

Sure, my instructor just couldn't give me that information simply because having never had any exposure to military training , there's no question about that. Otherwise he's not a bad guy at all

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by SkyFlier33

Sure, my instructor just couldn't give me that information simply because having never had any exposure to military training , there's no question about that. Otherwise he's not a bad guy at all

Not just that; it's just not something taught in the civilian realm much, unless one attends some sort of airspace working group (which AZ has).

[Rocketman99]

Originally Posted by MikeD

Still, keeping a head on a swivel is a must...

Don't you mean "cranium" Mike?

And Doug that was freaking hilarious!!

One potentially useful contribution to this that I haven't seen mentioned before. I think the OP said there were several planes that went by, obviously being a formation. The standard practice for formations is that lead will maintain the sqawk for the formation and will be the only one with TCAS operating (if so equipped). The other aircraft will likely be sqawking standby and will have TCAS in some sort of reduced mode like TA only. Or at least that was how it went when I last flew for big blue a few years ago.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by Rocketman99

Don't you mean "cranium" Mike?

.

That's the light-grey Eagle clowns......

[SkyFlier33]

Originally Posted by Rocketman99

Don't you mean "cranium" Mike?

And Doug that was freaking hilarious!!

One potentially useful contribution to this that I haven't seen mentioned before. I think the OP said there were several planes that went by, obviously being a formation. The standard practice for formations is that lead will maintain the sqawk for the formation and will be the only one with TCAS operating (if so equipped). The other aircraft will likely be sqawking standby and will have TCAS in some sort of reduced mode like TA only. Or at least that was how it went when I last flew for big blue a few years ago.

I had four traffic advisories from ATC: one of them was a formation, converging from the left about 700 ft below. I noticed them two seconds before they passed - way too late to do anything about it if there was a collision hazard. 2nd one- one airplane, about the same heading and same altitude as the formation, also saw him just as he was about to pass. 3rd and 4th- didn't see them at all, even though they were on my 12 o'clock and 1000 ft above at the time advisory was issued, in a few seconds they were "6 o'clock and no factor".

What's interesting is that the planes that I saw were headed northbound, even according to the VFR chart, the direction of flight along all the MTRs
in the area is southbound..

[Doug Taylor]

Could you imagine a nap-of-the-earth F-1/11 mission?

***WHOOP WHOOP PULL UP***

***SINK RATE***

***SINK RATE***

***TERRAIN TERRAIN***

***DONT SINK DONT SINK***

"Pickle!"

[fish314]

Originally Posted by SkyFlier33

...What's interesting is that the planes that I saw were headed northbound, even according to the VFR chart, the direction of flight along all the MTRs
in the area is southbound..

Quite a few of the routes go both directions, but they'll be numbered consecutively. So VR 1010 (I'm making this example up, BTW) might be one set of points, flown clockwise or east to west or whatever, and VR 1011 will be the exact same groundtrack, but in the opposite direction (west to east or counterclockwise or whatever).

Where I used to instruct we used SR-137 quite frequently, but we could have just as easily used SR-138... same route, but flown the opposite direction.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by fish314

Quite a few of the routes go both directions, but they'll be numbered consecutively. So VR 1010 (I'm making this example up, BTW) might be one set of points, flown clockwise or east to west or whatever, and VR 1011 will be the exact same groundtrack, but in the opposite direction (west to east or counterclockwise or whatever).

Where I used to instruct we used SR-137 quite frequently, but we could have just as easily used SR-138... same route, but flown the opposite direction.

Exactly. Plus, the aircraft you may have seen going the opposite direction could've been in the LATN area, ie- where you can fly anywhere low-level, and not necessarily on a designated route, since in that area of the Sells MOA, both exist.

[Zondaracer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOMOBXKmQEI
See and Avoid, T-38 near miss with civilian plane

[Hacker15e]

Originally Posted by Zondaracer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOMOBXKmQEI
See and Avoid, T-38 near miss with civilian plane

Note that occurred on an MTR (a published MTR that is right there on the sectional) at 500' AGL.

[///AMG]

Originally Posted by SkyFlier33

Not sure where to post this, so let it be here.

Was on my solo x-county yesterday, part of the route was pretty close to a low MOA.
At some point I had 4 military jets (not sure of make and model, could've been T-45s) converging/approaching me head-on. ATC was issuing traffic advisories: 2 of them blasted by me like 700 below, two of them I never even saw - must've had lights-out I guess
My question is: 1) is it often that military low-altitude training is conducted outside of MOAs, and 2) do they have a radar or TCAS on board so see some small creeper like a C172 and not hit one?
As a student, will appreciate any input related to this matter

You probably saw our jets en route from MS to El Centro. We've been using those routes for the last week or so, and T-45's are pretty unmistakable with the nice high viz orange and white paint

To answer your question specifically for my aircraft: No we don't have any sort of radar, and no TCAS or anything like it. Yes we are flying VFR at 350-400 Kts groundspeed at 500 AGL and practicing terrain masking along the way (read hard breaking turns around mountains and other unpredictable maneuvers). At those altitudes we are not really talking to anyone, though we check on and off the route with the local FSS. In other words there is certainly a risk of having a mid air with non-participating aircraft. If you plan to fly low around MTR's I highly encourage you to contact FSS and find out if the route is "hot". From my perspective there is also a risk involved around the primary entry and exit points of these routes, as you are doing a number of cockpit admin things, climbing or descending through normal VFR altitudes, accelerating (or slowing down coming off), and most likely trying to pick up some sort of a clearance or flight following from ATC. I'd be especially watchful in these areas if you have a reason to believe there is activity on the route.