How much airframe time is too much?

[meritflyer]

I've seen several planes with 4000+ hours on them.

To me, that sounds like a tired frame.

What say the experts?

[TFaudree_ERAU]

Piston or jet?

Piston, that's not a lot

Jet, it's still a "newborn"

It also depends on how it has been maintained and whether it has spent its entire life in a hangar or not. It also depends on whether or not that 4000 hours is over 10 years or 40 years.

[meritflyer]

Piston...

[Roger, Roger]

You're the one looking at an Arrow, right? 4000+ is not a lot at all, IF:
-it has been kept inside
-it has been flown regularly
-it has been well maintained and carefully inspected

[meritflyer]

I've heard many many mixed reviews about the subject.

I spoke with a 30+ year vet that deals exclusively in Pipers tonight. He echoed my gut feeling that 4000+ TTAF is a considerable amount.

Especially when there are 2000-3000 hour frames on the market.

[Jbroz04]

It all comes down to how well it is taken care of. My cherokee has around 3800 hours and my family has owned it the past 1400 hours. We take extremely good care of it and have replaces parts as needed but overall it is a extremely solid airframe and probally will keep it another 5 years or so till the homebuilt is ready to fly.

[roundout]

Depends on the airplane. I've flown a 11,000 150 that flew better than the other, lower-TTAF airplanes that we had. I've also seen a few 30 year veterans with low TTAF but with original engine, radios, paint, and interior. Where has it been kept? Proximity to the coast makes corrosion a big issue. Ever been wrecked? Ever been used in a flight school?

Every airplane that old is going to be different from the next one on the list. It's just a fact of life when looking at old airplanes.

[Cessnaflyer]

Haha I flew some Beech Sports with 60,000+ training hours. During their peak use they would have to change the oil about every 3-4 days. I can't wait to be one of the first ones to bid on one of them as well. Amazing maintenance.

[ppragman]

Originally Posted by meritflyer

I've seen several planes with 4000+ hours on them.

To me, that sounds like a tired frame.

What say the experts?

Lol, I've flown the 28th 207 and iirc it had around 18,000TT on it. The Beech 1900s at Ace were 50,000TT plus accept for the new one that only had 20,000-ish. 4000 is nothing. Most of our planes here have more than 9,000TT if I recall.

If an airplane flies 1500TT per year, it doesn't take long to build up some time. ACE was basically flying their machines around the clock. Think 1500-2000hrs per year for them.

[mshunter]

Don't the measure most presurized airplanes in cycle's, not hours?

[ctab5060X]

Originally Posted by mshunter

Don't the measure most presurized airplanes in cycle's, not hours?

I think there are certain things that are measured in cycles, but I know the CRJ goes for heavy maintenance every 4000 hours.


I understand Comair owns one with over 40,000 hours. And to think... most 50 seat regional jets generally average about one landing per hour!

[shdw]

Originally Posted by mshunter

Don't the measure most presurized airplanes in cycle's, not hours?

I don't know about civilian, but I recall reading military planes with airframe hour limitations. Can one of you military egg heads clarify?

[USMCmech]

Originally Posted by meritflyer

I've seen several planes with 4000+ hours on them.

To me, that sounds like a tired frame.

What say the experts?

Compare the following.

3 year old C172 with 1500 hours, vs 40 year old Comanche with 8000 hours

The Cessna sits outside in Houston. Students learn to land in it, and have porposied it hundreds of times, plus all those screwed up crosswind landings. The firewall has been replaced once. Renters and students climb in and out 3-4 times per day, tearing up the trim, carpet, seats, ect. The engine has been overheated during slow flight countless times. It's been spun several times as students try to learn stalls. Students have been doing 0 G parabolas with the resulting 2-3 G pull out. 500 hours per year is actually low for a flight school airplane.

Vs

The Comanche was hangared in Lubbock. It's only had two owners, both of whom used it as their personal aircraft. It's been repainted twice, with a full strip, prime, paint job by a quality shop. The interior has been redone 3 years ago. There has been a few cases of hangar rash, but all have been fully repaired and documented.

I know which one I'd buy.


The point is that TTAF is only one part of the picture. A flight school Cessna ages about 5 years for every year on the line, and can be a total wreck in a short period of time. A private airplane that averages 100-200 hours per year will last basicly forever.

Paint jobs and interior refurbs are great because they let the mechanincs look at the bare metal one every 10 years or so.

[FriendlySkies]

I'm flying a 99 with 41,000 hours on it!! Fun

[JordanD]

I've seen a Bonanzer on ASO or controller that had over 17,000 hours on it. Bright yellow too. Which Twin Cessna is it that they're grounding at over 11,000 hours (or something like that) because the tails fell off of a few? I wanna say it's just in Australia.

[ppragman]

I wanna know how much time one of Everts DC6's has got on it. Gotta be a lot.

[ahw01]

Yeh I wanna fly one of those DC6s - has the tach cycled round past 000000 by now?

Alex.

[trafficinsight]

Our club has 3 airplanes, 1 C172 with 15000 hours, 1 C152 with 13000 hours, and 1 C152 with 9000 hours.

There is some talk of replacing them... my question is: What are you gonna replace the 152's with?

Yes, they have high airframe time, yes we could get a low time airframe... but the newest one is 23 years old now. And the price premium for a low time 152 is nutty.

I saw one with 700 original hours, hangared all its life... the owner wanted $75000 for it. And since it has the original engine we'd have to overhaul it anyway. And it's still 30 years old!

[shdw]

Originally Posted by trafficinsight

There is some talk of replacing them... my question is: What are you gonna replace the 152's with?

If you consider new, www.libertyaviation.com A 2 seat center stick financing for around 1100 a month which burns 5 GPH and cruises at 130. A pretty revolutionary airplane and I doubt they are going anywhere with china as their primary market now. Certainly a much higher price than an old aircraft, but might pay off depending on the type of flying your club does through saved maintenance and fuel.

[dasleben]

4000 hours too much? Holy hell, I bet it still flies straight!

I'm flying 402s with 20,000 hours on them. Still fly like champs.

[USMCmech]

Originally Posted by trafficinsight

1 C152 with 13000 hours, and 1 C152 with 9000 hours.

There is some talk of replacing them... my question is: What are you gonna replace the 152's with? And it's still 30 years old!

The really crazy thing is the C-150/152 was designed to be a disposible airplane. Good for about 10 years of flight training and then buy another one.

Still going strong at 3X it's desgined service life.

[towhook]

I have heard there are DC-3's still flying with 100k+ hours. I regularly do aerobatics in a 10000 hr aircraft.

[minitour]

We had a Baron at Airnet (probably still flying) that I'm pretty sure Orville gave Wilbur his solo endorsement in. Lots and lots and lots and lots of hours on that bad boy. Take good care of it and no problems. Think of how long your car lasts you (relatively speaking a very long time) and what you put it through. You'd never do some of those things to your airplane...and you get more mx done to your airplane too.

-mini

[shdw]

Originally Posted by minitour

Think of how long your car lasts you (relatively speaking a very long time) and what you put it through. You'd never do some of those things to your airplane...and you get more mx done to your airplane too.

-mini

Yes but if your rear axel falls off you skid to a stop and look like a fool. If your wings fold up you get a front seat to your funeral.

[stratoduck]

i recently talked with a cessna engineer who specializes in accident investigations about this issue. i was asking him what he thought about the 11,000 hour 180/185's that the california highway patrol was selling recently. his response was an emphatic "buy one if you can". he really felt strongly about hours being almost meaningless, and condition and care being the factor the determines the structural airworthiness. this was the case with the CHiPs aircraft.