Lost Com Procedures Question.

[Murdoughnut]

Ok, I have a "what if" scenario as I'm studying different circumstances for my upcoming IR oral...

Ok, so you're flying along on the Cypress Five arrival ( http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0906/00257CYPRESS.PDF ) into the Miami area, on your way to Opa- Locka Executive when you lose communications in IMC.

So you end up at the Dolphin VOR (DHP), which is the last point on the published route. Now normally you would proceed to an IAF at Opa Locka and fly that approach, right? Well here's where I'm getting confused....

Opa Locka has 3 ILS approaches, and 2 GPS approaches. Two of the ILS approaches say "RADAR REQUIRED" and do not list IAF points. So that would mean that I can't use those approaches, correct?

The third ILS is the ILS/DME to 27R. It does not say "RADAR REQUIRED" but it does say that DME is required. Again, however, there are no IAF fix points identified on the plate ( http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0906/00256ID27R.PDF ) So I can't use this one either, right?

So here's my question. If I have an IFR approved GPS, I can just fly to an IAF of my choice (from DHP) for one of the GPS approaches and then take the GPS approach in, correct? What if I don't have a GPS - then what would I do since I can't fly any of the others without being in contact with ATC?

There may be a simple answer to this - it just had me confused. Thanks in advance for your help guys!

[Roger, Roger]

Both the ILS 9L and the ILS 12L have radials you could use to navigate from DHP to the LOC course. Now, that would be very much an unpublished procedure, but remember that lost comms in hard IFR in this airspace is very much an emergency. As for where you would hold if you got there early, on the 9L approach I would use MOLTS in place of an IAF.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by Roger, Roger

would be very much an unpublished procedure, but remember that lost comms in hard IFR in this airspace is very much an emergency.

While that might be fine from a legal perspective, safety is another question. Neither of those approaches have PTs; therefore, they do not have the protected airspace in which to make a PT. Using those radials would require a fair amount of maneuvering in no-man's land in order to get established on final, which might be an "out of the frying pan, into the fire" sort of thing.

I'd look at other airports in the area which use DHP and see if any of them have a feeder from the VOR. At the very least, there are a couple of radials from the VOR used to define fixes on approaches that DO have PT's so, you'd be safer in that regard.

[Murdoughnut]

Originally Posted by Roger, Roger

Both the ILS 9L and the ILS 12L have radials you could use to navigate from DHP to the LOC course. Now, that would be very much an unpublished procedure, but remember that lost comms in hard IFR in this airspace is very much an emergency. As for where you would hold if you got there early, on the 9L approach I would use MOLTS in place of an IAF.

That makes sense - I didn't think of it as much as an emergency as I did a standard procedure. Thanks!

[Roger, Roger]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

Neither of those approaches have PTs; therefore, they do not have the protected airspace in which to make a PT. Using those radials would require a fair amount of maneuvering in no-man's land in order to get established on final, which might be an "out of the frying pan, into the fire" sort of thing.

True, though if you were to go to the further fix (OKANE on the 9L, JARNO on the 12) you would be able to use the MSA (keeps you 1000' above obstacles) and still intercept the glideslope from below. Now, I kind of doubt that I would have thought of all this in the heat of the moment with a real comms failure, so I guess familiarizing oneself with nearby airports that have own-nav approaches would be a good idea.

[Sidious]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

I'd look at other airports in the area which use DHP and see if any of them have a feeder from the VOR. At the very least, there are a couple of radials from the VOR used to define fixes on approaches that DO have PT's so, you'd be safer in that regard.

So are you saying you'd go to a different airport if the Dolphin VOR was used to define an IAF?

[///AMG]

I would descend/climb to MSA, throw up the final approach course on the GPS (for the ILS), and fly a self contained approach onto the localizer. I'd give myself about 10 miles (to stay inside the protected radius for the MSA) of straightaway off my dogleg so I could slow down and configure before hitting the GS. Then it would just be a matter of making calls in the blind, squaking 7600 (or 7700 depending on who you talk to), and flying a good ILS so that you can get on deck to stay. Without GPS, if you had DME you could fly a 10 or 15 DME arc around the station until you intercept the localizer. Without DME you had better find a different approach unless you can take a cut off of another navaid and maneuver yourself around by eyeballing it. In Miami's airspace I would not try this. Just my .02.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by Sidious

So are you saying you'd go to a different airport if the Dolphin VOR was used to define an IAF?

If I could not safely get into the airport to which I filed, absolutely.

When I filed to MEM (all approaches are RADAR REQUIRED), I always assumed that in the event of lost com, I'd fly into one of the surrounding GA airports, most of which have feeder routes.

Emergency authority. Controllers say they'll watch what you do and move any conflicting traffic out of the way.

[Sidious]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

Emergency authority. Controllers say they'll watch what you do and move any conflicting traffic out of the way.

Ok makes sense.

Thats what I was curious about - what ATC would think but if going to a different airport wouldn't cause a major issue or conflict then I suppose it would be the best course of action.

[Codyjp]

Sometimes (I haven't looked at this exact case...) but simply taking a peek at the enroute chart will clear things up. Even if the arrival doesn't take you to an appropriate intersection (feeder route or IAF) there might be an intersection that would be usable on the enroute chart.

Again, I'm not sure in this case, so I'm just sayin'.