close call question??

[Flying_Corporal]

You operate outside airport airspace but in the area that ATC uses to vector commerical traffic (e.g. ILS) which creates nuissance for the controller. You're VFR, you're not violating any airspace, just simply do maneuvers at 3K-4K feet.

Can FAA do sth against you?

One instructor that I know did just that and got one of those "call TRACON after you land" clearance.

[bluelake]

maybe TRACON simply wants to say, "hey, can you do your steep turns and slow flight and lazy eights a tad to the east??"

"my practice area" here in N. California is pretty close to the RDD ILS 34, and I am conscious of that and work to avoid it.

[JEP]

At my airport, whenever we go out to the practice area, we generally call up approach control and request VFR traffic advisories. Let them know were manuerving below xxxx. They give you a sqwauk code and you just have to let them know when leaving the area. It works out well.

[sixpack]

If you have a GPS, it's sometimes handy to load the local approach up when doing maneuvers. Makes it easy to avoid flying near the approach course.

[say_speed]

I know a guy, using a handheld GPS (moving map, color... the top for its time) was navigating around a class B airspace... He got 6 violations for flying into the airspace without a clearance!

Nothing beats the good old fashion map!

[JEP]

[ QUOTE ]
He got 6 violations for flying into the airspace without a clearance!

[/ QUOTE ]
Alot of good the GPS did him. Keep the TAC handy and pay attention. It doesn't make much sense. If you get one violation, something should tell you to move away.

[mtsu_av8er]

[ QUOTE ]

Nothing beats the good old fashion map!

[/ QUOTE ]

Except for good technology AND common sense....

I know somebody that had a sectional and still busted airspace....

[triple7]

In my opinion...you have no business getting that close to class b or any restricted airspace without a reason(ie expecting to be cleared through, landing closeby at a satelite field, etc). If you are out flying, take an extra 10 minutes onto your flight and steer several miles away from that airspace...radar isnt exact and getting that close is tempting fate.

[fr8dog]

sure...but if you're training in southern california ie San Diego, you've got class B left right, ahead and above....
Unless you want to burn 25 min just to get in the desert, you got to deal with it.
Comes down to good technique and judgment.

[fender_jag]

I agree with bluelake; if he's not violating Bravo (or whatever airspace he was infringing on) but rather "disturbing" inbound flights, then ATC should have asked him to go to the practice area. I would never take a VFR student (working solely on maneuvers) anywhere near the outer rim of B,C, or D airspace.

I wonder why he was practicing maneuvers in a high-traffic area.

[FlyChicaga]

Ok, just my two cents.

If you are training nearby a large commercial-traffic airport (say, within 30 miles of PHX, ORD, MDW, EWR, IAD, FLL, etc. you get the idea) take a look at how the approach controllers vector aircraft in that area. At MDW, we are often vectored onto final for the ILS 31C in CAVU conditions to ease traffic flow (easier to do an ILS than visual when trying to coordinate high density traffic) up to 30 miles away from the airport. It has happened a few times that while flying the approach, or vectoring onto the final approach course, a VFR aircraft doing maneuvers will chandelle up to our TCAS limits and shoot off an RA, causing us to climb (or descend) away from where we are supposed to be. This has happened at least a half dozen times to me in the past 6 months.

Can you get violated? Not likely. But, you may be maneuvering in an area which is loaded with commercial traffic, causing conflicts up the kazoo. You may have visual separation with that 737 ahead, and know you will pass well clear; however, on board that 737 the TCAS system doesn't know that, and will issue an RA, causing the crew to execute a large climb or descent (3000 FPM) to evade the conflict.

When I was renting out of MDW, the instructors there always said "if you are just going to fly and do maneuvers go about 25 miles south. It's clear around there for airline traffic." Which is true. Going east, however, will put you right in some paths of traffic vectoring for 4R, 31C, or 22L.

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, just my two cents.

If you are training nearby a large commercial-traffic airport (say, within 30 miles of PHX, ORD, MDW, EWR, IAD, FLL, etc. you get the idea) take a look at how the approach controllers vector aircraft in that area. At MDW, we are often vectored onto final for the ILS 31C in CAVU conditions to ease traffic flow (easier to do an ILS than visual when trying to coordinate high density traffic) up to 30 miles away from the airport.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree, and additionally, TAC charts should have general flow routes depicted with the little grey jet symbol and the blue/grey dashed lines; allowing pilots to be able to visualize the flow pattern locations in reference to ground points.

[fender_jag]

Two words: situational awareness. Eyes (looking for traffic), ears (for any radio calls), and brain (where am I, what are my surroundings, what's most important/what's next).

[MikeD]

Total SA is where it's at, baby!