Logging time in a dual pilot aircraft

[ClearedToTakeoff]

I saw the other thread, but did not want to hijack it due to different aircraft types. So if that's something mods don't like let me know and i can delete and move over there.

But anyways, I have the potential opportunity to fly right seat in a Citation II. What do I need to legally be able to log time? It sounds as if I'm just going to be a warm body to fill that right seat (it'll be unpaid). I have my CMEL, but looking over 61.55 it sounds as if I need some form of formal training, I just can't show up and start logging time on day 1. But that is for SIC. Is it required I log SIC for a dual pilot aircraft? I never really brushed up much on this topic because I never figured I'd get the chance, but now I'm curious.

Thanks for your help. Just want to be sure this is all legal before I pursue it more and put some hours down in my log book.

[dc3flyer]

If I am not mistaken, the CJ II can be a single pilot airplane, if the pilot is typed as single pilot. Even if that is the case, that doesn't mean it HAS to be a single pilot plane.

Are you flying for free for a reason? I can understand you wanting to get some experience, but if they need someone for the seat, you may want to think twice about doing it for free.

If it is Part 91, you need to have some training which could be covered by perhaps the other pilot telling you about the operating limitations, systems, and so forth. He could write what you guys discuss in your logbook and you should be okay, I don't think anyone will question that. I am too lazy to look up the reg, but you evidently have done that and know what you need to discuss.

[ClearedToTakeoff]

Originally Posted by dc3flyer

If I am not mistaken, the CJ II can be a single pilot airplane, if the pilot is typed as single pilot. Even if that is the case, that doesn't mean it HAS to be a single pilot plane.

Are you flying for free for a reason? I can understand you wanting to get some experience, but if they need someone for the seat, you may want to think twice about doing it for free.

If it is Part 91, you need to have some training which could be covered by perhaps the other pilot telling you about the operating limitations, systems, and so forth. He could write what you guys discuss in your logbook and you should be okay, I don't think anyone will question that. I am too lazy to look up the reg, but you evidently have done that and know what you need to discuss.

It's not an every day job, it's just every once in a while when he needs it I hear. So I figure while doing a paying job elsewhere, might be a great way to get some valuable time. What would I want to think twice about? It's not a job he's advertising so I don't feel like i'm cutting below someone taking jobs away. Again it's probably once a week or two weeks, so it's not like a regular staffing job if that makes a difference

[///AMG]

He means that just because you are new/low time/whatever, shouldn't mean that you should just give it out for free. I personally never really cared much about the money vs the experience, but it is a valid point.

IIRC, the annual training is for single pilot operation of the CJ, though I could be mistaken. I flew and logged a few hours in one at a previous job of mine as a 2P/SIC.

[ClearedToTakeoff]

Originally Posted by ///AMG

He means that just because you are new/low time/whatever, shouldn't mean that you should just give it out for free. I personally never really cared much about the money vs the experience, but it is a valid point.

IIRC, the annual training is for single pilot operation of the CJ, though I could be mistaken. I flew and logged a few hours in one at a previous job of mine as a 2P/SIC.

Understandable. I don't even know if it will go through yet, so I won't worry about a moral dilemma quite yet. It's just a friend of a friend type deal. So we'll see. This was more just to make sure the legality of it if I don't hold a SIC type or anything. Just incase in the future maybe someone offers to sling a few bucks my way if I do a quick turn around for someone I already know the legality behind how to log it.

[///AMG]

Right, I don't really think there is any moral issue. It's just a question of how much you value your time....I mean ultimately you are providing a service which most people get paid for. See what I mean? I personally would do it, especially if I had 2nd income cause I love flying and like to fly as many different airplanes as I can, but some people are a bit more practical (and probably make more money )

[dc3flyer]

If you could, I would definitely try to ride along a time or two just to get an idea of what it is like to fly a corporate jet.

Another thing to think about, if you are going to be a required crewmember, you will need to have three takeoffs and landings as well as "become familiar with" the stuff in the regs proir to carrying passengers.


When I said you should think twice, I am just saying that if this guy NEEDS you, especially if he is going to NEED you once a week, or even two, he NEEDS to be paying you. I am sorry but that is the bottom line. Look at it this way, being a flight instructor is a great way to build valuable time, but would you do that for free a day every other week? Even being a captain on a Gulfstream or 747 is great experience, but I don't see anyone doing that for free. I am really not trying to bust your chops, just think about it.

[Nihon_Ni]

Originally Posted by ClearedToTakeoff

Is it required I log SIC for a dual pilot aircraft?

For an aircraft that requires a type rating, (such as the Citation) you can not log PIC as the sole manipulator of the flight controls since you are not appropriately rated unless you hold a PIC type rating. If two pilots are required, that makes you the SIC regardless of who is operating the yoke.

[BrewMaster]

Do you have to be type rated as SIC? I fairly sure no matter what you do, you can't log any of that time. #1 you have to be type rated in any jet aircraft..#2 the CJ dos is single pilot rated I'm pretty sure...

If I'm just blowing smoke out of my arse then I understand, but that was my take on it...

[dc3flyer]

Originally Posted by BrewMaster

Do you have to be type rated as SIC? I fairly sure no matter what you do, you can't log any of that time. #1 you have to be type rated in any jet aircraft

You don't have to have an SIC type rating to be an SIC on a jet aircraft, that is unless you are flying outside the United States.

[BrewMaster]

Ahh, I knew it was something like that. Either way, I don't think he is going to be able to log that time because he isn't type rated, and the CJII is a single pilot joint.

[minitour]

Slow up guys.

First:
CJ2 or Citation II? Big difference.

CJ2 - If the PICs CE-525S typed, the pilot may fly single pilot assuming the limitations in the AFM are satisfied. Probably an autopilot with coupler, boom or headset, accessible charts, maybe a yoke clip. Something like that. If the pilot has only the CE-525 type (no S), then he/she needs an SIC. If the PIC is 525S typed, no recurrent training is required by regulations for the PIC (the 61.58 training/checking only applies to a two pilot aircraft).

Citation II - The PIC is CE-500 typed but it can still be operated single pilot. The PIC has to complete single pilot waiver training to do this and if so, the limitations in the AFM have to be followed here as well. Without single pilot waiver training, the pilot needs an SIC. Unless of course, it isn't a II but a 2sp (or whatever they're called...model 501 or 551 of the 500-series). Those are actually part 23 single pilot airplanes. For single pilot waiver training, the PIC has to "renew" it every year. I believe you have to do it the first year in the exact airplane (it's specific to airplane and pilot) but you may do "recurrent" in the sim. Either way, a 61.58 check is required for the 500 series (except the 501 & 551, which are not two pilot airplanes).

There's another curve ball. If the pilot did his or her type IN a 501/551 (or I'd assume a sim representing a 501 or 551 - not sure why one would though), and they used an SIC for the type checkride, they have a limitation on their certificate "SIC REQUIRED" and may not operate even the 501 or 551 as a single pilot. In this case, you are required and if trained under 61.55, you may log SIC time.

In either case, you need a 61.55 checkout at the very least. No, you don't need to be SIC "typed" (which is nothing more than a training endorsement anyway) to fly domestically. If you do this, you can log SIC time for any time you're serving as a required crewmember just like 61.51 says.

This, of course, is all under the assumption that it's strictly Part 91.

-mini

[///AMG]

Originally Posted by minitour

This, of course, is all under the assumption that it's strictly Part 91.

-mini

And from what I recall, in the corporate world, this requires some interesting legal hopscotch in terms of "employee" status and whatnot

[minitour]

Originally Posted by ///AMG

And from what I recall, in the corporate world, this requires some interesting legal hopscotch in terms of "employee" status and whatnot

Shouldn't. Either the owner of the aircraft owns the airplane and isn't charging people for a ride or he/she isn't. Many corporate departments use contract pilots in the right seat exclusively. Some even use contract pilots for both seats from time to time.

-mini

[///AMG]

Referring more to who rides in the back. I have heard of some weird arrangements, like one company incorporating other companies just so they can share jets and still operate 91 (cheaper of course) since all the pax are considered "employees" even if a completely different company

[minitour]

Originally Posted by ///AMG

Referring more to who rides in the back. I have heard of some weird arrangements, like one company incorporating other companies just so they can share jets and still operate 91 (cheaper of course) since all the pax are considered "employees" even if a completely different company

If they're employees and the owner isn't charging them for the privilege of being there, I can't see how that stumbles into 135.

If the owner is charging for the plane and pilot, then yeah that's going to need a 135 certificate.

-mini