IAP Question

RiddlePilot · February 15th, 2004, 15:26

Reference the RNAV (GPS)-A approach to Payson, AZ (KPAN).

As you can see, TOPEE is the IAF for the approach. What I can not seem to figure out is how exactly you would transition from the enroute structure to this approach. TOPEE is not depicted on the low-enroute, and the approach does not have a TAA, only an MSA.

I'm scratchin' my head here. Can anyone shed some light?

mtsu_av8er · February 15th, 2004, 15:35

( view here )

You could file TOPEE as the final fix in your route, or you would be cleared "Direct TOPEE, cleared for the RNAV/GPS-A approach at Payson".

Any other bites??

EatSleepFly · February 15th, 2004, 15:44

I think you're reading too much into it. Why would having TOPEE depicted on the Low En Route chart change the way you transition from enroute to approach? If you are equipped to fly this approach, you are capable of filing TOPEE as your last fix.

SteveC · February 15th, 2004, 16:03

In case of lost comm, what altitude would you fly to the IAF?

mtsu_av8er · February 15th, 2004, 16:07

[ QUOTE ]
In case of lost comm, what altitude would you fly to the IAF?

[/ QUOTE ]

Last Assigned.

EatSleepFly · February 15th, 2004, 16:47

Ditto. Last assigned until TOPEE, then down to 8600...

RiddlePilot · February 15th, 2004, 21:05

Mmk. Thanks guys.

EatSleepFly · February 15th, 2004, 21:11

TOPEE or not to pee. That is the question.

I am so not funny.

MikeD · February 15th, 2004, 22:01

[ QUOTE ]
Mmk. Thanks guys.

[/ QUOTE ]

I sense a question mark with your reply......

To expand a bit, if you're on the enroute structure, v airways/navaids, you can use your last navaid and file off airway (Random RNAV Route) to the IAF RNAV direct, or from an intersection/fix (an offset from an establiched airway or route), or specific degree/distance from a navaid to TOPEE and begin the approach from there. So long as you have radar monitoring from Center (required), you should be OK.

mtsu_av8er · February 15th, 2004, 22:09

[ QUOTE ]
TOPEE or not to pee. That is the question.

I am so not funny.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL...I thought it was pretty good....

RiddlePilot · February 15th, 2004, 23:08

[ QUOTE ]
To expand a bit, if you're on the enroute structure, v airways/navaids, you can use your last navaid and file off airway (Random RNAV Route) to the IAF RNAV direct, or from an intersection/fix (an offset from an establiched airway or route), or specific degree/distance from a navaid to TOPEE and begin the approach from there. So long as you have radar monitoring from Center (required), you should be OK.

[/ QUOTE ]

That makes sense. I s'pose if I wanted to actually shoot this approach, filing from, say, Prescott could just as easily be "DRK TOPEE." The main issue that popped into my mind was minimum altitudes while transitioning from enroute to approach. I'm so used to filing to an IAF itself (or at least to a navaid with a feeder route).
I'm surprised I never picked that up during instrument training.

Thanks again.

mtsu_av8er · February 16th, 2004, 00:11

[ QUOTE ]
I'm so used to filing to an IAF itself (or at least to a navaid with a feeder route).

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the beauty of /G operations, and GPS in general!!! You can actually go directly where you want to go!!

ananoman · February 21st, 2004, 22:29

[ QUOTE ]
I think you're reading too much into it. Why would having TOPEE depicted on the Low En Route chart change the way you transition from enroute to approach? If you are equipped to fly this approach, you are capable of filing TOPEE as your last fix.

[/ QUOTE ]

In my experience, I have been unable to file to any fix not depicted on an enroute chart. FPR is only about 10 miles away from my home airport at VRB and the ILS 9 at FPR has a compass locator/outer marker which is not depicted on enroute charts. You would think that it would be possible to file direct to the LOM from VRB, since we are within its 15nm service volume, but the computer will not take this flight plan. I have also tried to file to other fixes depicted on approach plates, but not on enroute charts. They are always rejected. It is not uncommon for FSS to take the flight plan and hang up, and I filed like this many times before a FSS briefer told me my flight plans were rejected. So my advice is to only file to fixes located on the enroute chart.

In your example I would file a normal flight plan using airways and then just go from an intersection/fix direct to the airport. If you lost coms, you could just fly to the IAF and do the approach.

mtsu_av8er · February 22nd, 2004, 14:53

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you're reading too much into it. Why would having TOPEE depicted on the Low En Route chart change the way you transition from enroute to approach? If you are equipped to fly this approach, you are capable of filing TOPEE as your last fix.

[/ QUOTE ]

In my experience, I have been unable to file to any fix not depicted on an enroute chart. FPR is only about 10 miles away from my home airport at VRB and the ILS 9 at FPR has a compass locator/outer marker which is not depicted on enroute charts. You would think that it would be possible to file direct to the LOM from VRB, since we are within its 15nm service volume, but the computer will not take this flight plan. I have also tried to file to other fixes depicted on approach plates, but not on enroute charts. They are always rejected. It is not uncommon for FSS to take the flight plan and hang up, and I filed like this many times before a FSS briefer told me my flight plans were rejected. So my advice is to only file to fixes located on the enroute chart.

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the many problems associated with human beings, and our 1950s technology at the FSS. I just went to DUATS and filed from VRB to FPR via direct LUUCE.

Now, the computer might not have taken it if I filed to FJ, which is the compass locator for this approach. However, there are usually intersections at these fixes because more and more people are using /G navigation these days.

Go ahead, go to DUATS and file it....to the intersection and not the NDB. Next round says it'll take it!!!

cime_sp · February 22nd, 2004, 18:01

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you're reading too much into it. Why would having TOPEE depicted on the Low En Route chart change the way you transition from enroute to approach? If you are equipped to fly this approach, you are capable of filing TOPEE as your last fix.

[/ QUOTE ]

In my experience, I have been unable to file to any fix not depicted on an enroute chart. FPR is only about 10 miles away from my home airport at VRB and the ILS 9 at FPR has a compass locator/outer marker which is not depicted on enroute charts. You would think that it would be possible to file direct to the LOM from VRB, since we are within its 15nm service volume, but the computer will not take this flight plan. I have also tried to file to other fixes depicted on approach plates, but not on enroute charts. They are always rejected. It is not uncommon for FSS to take the flight plan and hang up, and I filed like this many times before a FSS briefer told me my flight plans were rejected. So my advice is to only file to fixes located on the enroute chart.

In your example I would file a normal flight plan using airways and then just go from an intersection/fix direct to the airport. If you lost coms, you could just fly to the IAF and do the approach.

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to file to LUUCE all the time when I was down there. As MTSU said that one works but FJ doesn't.

EatSleepFly · February 22nd, 2004, 18:48

[ QUOTE ]
I used to file to LUUCE all the time when I was down there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto.

ananoman · February 22nd, 2004, 20:45

I have also filed this many times and had the FSS briefer say 'have a nice flight' and hang up. I have also have them say that the computer will not take the flight plan. When I asked why, the answer I was given was that the waypoint is not in the computer. When going to TIX, I have filed V3 to MLB direct LORDS (LORDS is on the ILS36 approach) then TIX. According to FSS, the computer will not take LORDS, which is not on an enroute chart. I have not used Duats to file a flight plan, but it may be possible to file a flight plan and have Duats accept it, only to have some of it rejected by the FAA computer and being given another route. You probably would not know this happened until you pick up your clearance.

This sometimes happens with FSS as well. It is possible to file a flight plan and hang up, but not have your flight plan accepted by the FAA computer. FSS simply tries something else to make it work. I know they do this, because when they said the computer would not take my flight plan I said "why not?, it did in the past", and they told me that they simply alter the flight plan when it is rejected.

mtsu_av8er · February 22nd, 2004, 22:00

[ QUOTE ]
I have not used Duats to file a flight plan, but it may be possible to file a flight plan and have Duats accept it, only to have some of it rejected by the FAA computer and being given another route.

[/ QUOTE ]

I pretty much always file my flight plans with DUATS, and I've never had any problem whatsoever. If the flight plan won't be accepted, then DUATS won't accept it. You should give it a try sometime!!!

I've file flight plans on DUATS that the FSS briefer wouldn't take - and that's why I mentioned the 1950s technology earlier....their crap sux!!!

ananoman · February 23rd, 2004, 18:40

I called today and asked if their computer will accept flight plans containing waypoints not on an enroute chart and the answer was "usually not". Since Duat sends your flight plan into the same FAA computer, I would imagine that some of the waypoints you file are not accepted by the FAA computer and you just don't know it. The Duat flight planner probably just makes sure that all the waypoints have 3 letters for a VOR or NDB or 5 for a waypoint, and that is about it.

If you think about it, none of the computer flight planners include approach waypoints in the flight plans they generate. They are not necessary. You can just file from the enroute structure direct to the airport for those destinations that only have GPS approaches. If you loose coms, you just pick an IAF and do the approach.

February 15th, 2004, 15:26	#1
RiddlePilot Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Prescott, AZ Posts: 928	IAP Question Reference the RNAV (GPS)-A approach to Payson, AZ (KPAN). As you can see, TOPEE is the IAF for the approach. What I can not seem to figure out is how exactly you would transition from the enroute structure to this approach. TOPEE is not depicted on the low-enroute, and the approach does not have a TAA, only an MSA. I'm scratchin' my head here. Can anyone shed some light?

February 15th, 2004, 15:35	#2
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia Posts: 12,567	Re: IAP Question ( view here ) You could file TOPEE as the final fix in your route, or you would be cleared "Direct TOPEE, cleared for the RNAV/GPS-A approach at Payson". Any other bites??

February 15th, 2004, 15:44	#3
EatSleepFly Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: ?? Posts: 4,600	Re: IAP Question I think you're reading too much into it. Why would having TOPEE depicted on the Low En Route chart change the way you transition from enroute to approach? If you are equipped to fly this approach, you are capable of filing TOPEE as your last fix.

February 15th, 2004, 16:03	#4
SteveC Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: GRR Posts: 8,620	Re: IAP Question In case of lost comm, what altitude would you fly to the IAF?

February 15th, 2004, 16:07	#5
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia Posts: 12,567	Re: IAP Question [ QUOTE ] In case of lost comm, what altitude would you fly to the IAF? [/ QUOTE ] Last Assigned.

February 15th, 2004, 16:47	#6
EatSleepFly Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: ?? Posts: 4,600	Re: IAP Question Ditto. Last assigned until TOPEE, then down to 8600...

February 15th, 2004, 21:05	#7
RiddlePilot Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Prescott, AZ Posts: 928	Re: IAP Question Mmk. Thanks guys.

February 15th, 2004, 21:11	#8
EatSleepFly Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: ?? Posts: 4,600	Re: IAP Question TOPEE or not to pee. That is the question. I am so not funny.

February 15th, 2004, 22:01	#9
MikeD Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pinal Airpark Posts: 6,897	Re: IAP Question [ QUOTE ] Mmk. Thanks guys. [/ QUOTE ] I sense a question mark with your reply...... To expand a bit, if you're on the enroute structure, v airways/navaids, you can use your last navaid and file off airway (Random RNAV Route) to the IAF RNAV direct, or from an intersection/fix (an offset from an establiched airway or route), or specific degree/distance from a navaid to TOPEE and begin the approach from there. So long as you have radar monitoring from Center (required), you should be OK.

February 15th, 2004, 22:09	#10
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia Posts: 12,567	Re: IAP Question [ QUOTE ] TOPEE or not to pee. That is the question. I am so not funny. [/ QUOTE ] LOL...I thought it was pretty good....

February 15th, 2004, 23:08	#11
RiddlePilot Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Prescott, AZ Posts: 928	Re: IAP Question [ QUOTE ] To expand a bit, if you're on the enroute structure, v airways/navaids, you can use your last navaid and file off airway (Random RNAV Route) to the IAF RNAV direct, or from an intersection/fix (an offset from an establiched airway or route), or specific degree/distance from a navaid to TOPEE and begin the approach from there. So long as you have radar monitoring from Center (required), you should be OK. [/ QUOTE ] That makes sense. I s'pose if I wanted to actually shoot this approach, filing from, say, Prescott could just as easily be "DRK TOPEE." The main issue that popped into my mind was minimum altitudes while transitioning from enroute to approach. I'm so used to filing to an IAF itself (or at least to a navaid with a feeder route). I'm surprised I never picked that up during instrument training. Thanks again.

February 16th, 2004, 00:11	#12
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia Posts: 12,567	Re: IAP Question [ QUOTE ] I'm so used to filing to an IAF itself (or at least to a navaid with a feeder route). [/ QUOTE ] That's the beauty of /G operations, and GPS in general!!! You can actually go directly where you want to go!!

February 21st, 2004, 22:29	#13
ananoman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 916	Re: IAP Question [ QUOTE ] I think you're reading too much into it. Why would having TOPEE depicted on the Low En Route chart change the way you transition from enroute to approach? If you are equipped to fly this approach, you are capable of filing TOPEE as your last fix. [/ QUOTE ] In my experience, I have been unable to file to any fix not depicted on an enroute chart. FPR is only about 10 miles away from my home airport at VRB and the ILS 9 at FPR has a compass locator/outer marker which is not depicted on enroute charts. You would think that it would be possible to file direct to the LOM from VRB, since we are within its 15nm service volume, but the computer will not take this flight plan. I have also tried to file to other fixes depicted on approach plates, but not on enroute charts. They are always rejected. It is not uncommon for FSS to take the flight plan and hang up, and I filed like this many times before a FSS briefer told me my flight plans were rejected. So my advice is to only file to fixes located on the enroute chart. In your example I would file a normal flight plan using airways and then just go from an intersection/fix direct to the airport. If you lost coms, you could just fly to the IAF and do the approach.

February 22nd, 2004, 14:53	#14
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia Posts: 12,567	Re: IAP Question [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I think you're reading too much into it. Why would having TOPEE depicted on the Low En Route chart change the way you transition from enroute to approach? If you are equipped to fly this approach, you are capable of filing TOPEE as your last fix. [/ QUOTE ] In my experience, I have been unable to file to any fix not depicted on an enroute chart. FPR is only about 10 miles away from my home airport at VRB and the ILS 9 at FPR has a compass locator/outer marker which is not depicted on enroute charts. You would think that it would be possible to file direct to the LOM from VRB, since we are within its 15nm service volume, but the computer will not take this flight plan. I have also tried to file to other fixes depicted on approach plates, but not on enroute charts. They are always rejected. It is not uncommon for FSS to take the flight plan and hang up, and I filed like this many times before a FSS briefer told me my flight plans were rejected. So my advice is to only file to fixes located on the enroute chart. [/ QUOTE ] One of the many problems associated with human beings, and our 1950s technology at the FSS. I just went to DUATS and filed from VRB to FPR via direct LUUCE. Now, the computer might not have taken it if I filed to FJ, which is the compass locator for this approach. However, there are usually intersections at these fixes because more and more people are using /G navigation these days. Go ahead, go to DUATS and file it....to the intersection and not the NDB. Next round says it'll take it!!!

February 22nd, 2004, 18:01	#15
cime_sp Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: ATL Posts: 782	Re: IAP Question [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I think you're reading too much into it. Why would having TOPEE depicted on the Low En Route chart change the way you transition from enroute to approach? If you are equipped to fly this approach, you are capable of filing TOPEE as your last fix. [/ QUOTE ] In my experience, I have been unable to file to any fix not depicted on an enroute chart. FPR is only about 10 miles away from my home airport at VRB and the ILS 9 at FPR has a compass locator/outer marker which is not depicted on enroute charts. You would think that it would be possible to file direct to the LOM from VRB, since we are within its 15nm service volume, but the computer will not take this flight plan. I have also tried to file to other fixes depicted on approach plates, but not on enroute charts. They are always rejected. It is not uncommon for FSS to take the flight plan and hang up, and I filed like this many times before a FSS briefer told me my flight plans were rejected. So my advice is to only file to fixes located on the enroute chart. In your example I would file a normal flight plan using airways and then just go from an intersection/fix direct to the airport. If you lost coms, you could just fly to the IAF and do the approach. [/ QUOTE ] I used to file to LUUCE all the time when I was down there. As MTSU said that one works but FJ doesn't.

February 22nd, 2004, 18:48	#16
EatSleepFly Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: ?? Posts: 4,600	Re: IAP Question [ QUOTE ] I used to file to LUUCE all the time when I was down there. [/ QUOTE ] Ditto.

February 22nd, 2004, 20:45	#17
ananoman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 916	Re: IAP Question I have also filed this many times and had the FSS briefer say 'have a nice flight' and hang up. I have also have them say that the computer will not take the flight plan. When I asked why, the answer I was given was that the waypoint is not in the computer. When going to TIX, I have filed V3 to MLB direct LORDS (LORDS is on the ILS36 approach) then TIX. According to FSS, the computer will not take LORDS, which is not on an enroute chart. I have not used Duats to file a flight plan, but it may be possible to file a flight plan and have Duats accept it, only to have some of it rejected by the FAA computer and being given another route. You probably would not know this happened until you pick up your clearance. This sometimes happens with FSS as well. It is possible to file a flight plan and hang up, but not have your flight plan accepted by the FAA computer. FSS simply tries something else to make it work. I know they do this, because when they said the computer would not take my flight plan I said "why not?, it did in the past", and they told me that they simply alter the flight plan when it is rejected.

February 22nd, 2004, 22:00	#18
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia Posts: 12,567	Re: IAP Question [ QUOTE ] I have not used Duats to file a flight plan, but it may be possible to file a flight plan and have Duats accept it, only to have some of it rejected by the FAA computer and being given another route. [/ QUOTE ] I pretty much always file my flight plans with DUATS, and I've never had any problem whatsoever. If the flight plan won't be accepted, then DUATS won't accept it. You should give it a try sometime!!! I've file flight plans on DUATS that the FSS briefer wouldn't take - and that's why I mentioned the 1950s technology earlier....their crap sux!!!

February 23rd, 2004, 18:40	#19
ananoman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 916	Re: IAP Question I called today and asked if their computer will accept flight plans containing waypoints not on an enroute chart and the answer was "usually not". Since Duat sends your flight plan into the same FAA computer, I would imagine that some of the waypoints you file are not accepted by the FAA computer and you just don't know it. The Duat flight planner probably just makes sure that all the waypoints have 3 letters for a VOR or NDB or 5 for a waypoint, and that is about it. If you think about it, none of the computer flight planners include approach waypoints in the flight plans they generate. They are not necessary. You can just file from the enroute structure direct to the airport for those destinations that only have GPS approaches. If you loose coms, you just pick an IAF and do the approach.

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