A-300 landing attitude

[brent p h]

Recently while spotting I observed a A-300 in an extreme nose -up attitude while on approach. I presume this was due too high gross weight. (he had to be at least 20 degrees nose up). -Bus drivers is this common?

[BobDDuck]

Originally Posted by brent p h

(he had to be at least 20 degrees nose up).

I'm going to guess he wasn't anywhere near 20 degrees up. Tails tend to get dinged up when that happens.

[Baronman]

Yeah, they sure do look nose high most of the time. But like the other poster said 20 degrees would be a bit much, and if the plane was descending that would be a huge angle of attack.

But yeah most of the shorter airbii (not the 340-5/600) come in with a higher pitch attitude than comparable boeings. Sure looks better than the CRJ which has me cringe every time it. Looks like they're going to crash followed by a Cessna'esque 3 point landing!

Pitch attitude is probably more like 5 degrees nose up.

[JA Yawd Bwoy]

Yeah, I notice when I flew an American 738 it did not have much pitch, but oh lord did the A343 have pitch!

I think it just has to do with your visual perspective because if you look on fl350.com, the pitch does not look much different than a Boeing plane.

[Bus Driver]

Originally Posted by brent p h

Recently while spotting I observed a A-300 in an extreme nose -up attitude while on approach. I presume this was due too high gross weight. (he had to be at least 20 degrees nose up). -Bus drivers is this common?

Not at all, the nominal deck angle is about 5 degrees increasing to 7-9 during the flare and touchdown (A300-B4). Deck angles will be higher with a flap abnormal but you start to worry about tail strikes around 13 1/2 degrees.

[falconvalley]

I don't think anyone has mentioned it yet, but pitch angle isn't related to gross weight. It is true that higher gross weight requires more lift, but that's not why pitch angle is high on an airplane like that. Usually, speed is used to handle differences in weight.

[MikeOH58]

ugliest landing airplane has got to be the PC-12. Most fun (and scary for your first time) seat to be in during landing, is in the aft most row in a caravan. You really get the sensation of being at a ridicously high pitch angle, which your not, but it feels so.

[Chief Captain]

Originally Posted by brent p h

Recently while spotting I observed a A-300 in an extreme nose -up attitude while on approach. I presume this was due too high gross weight. (he had to be at least 20 degrees nose up). -Bus drivers is this common?

I'm pretty sure he wasn't near 20 degrees. Probably closer to 5. If the pitch seemed higher than usual, maybe they were slower than normal, or with less flaps than usual. Who knows? Maybe they even had a pair of spoiler floating...

Probably just perception though.

[coa787]

Originally Posted by falconvalley

I don't think anyone has mentioned it yet, but pitch angle isn't related to gross weight. It is true that higher gross weight requires more lift, but that's not why pitch angle is high on an airplane like that. Usually, speed is used to handle differences in weight.

The flap setting also dictates the pitch angle. The slower you fly, the higher the flap setting must be in order to maintain lift because the flaps add more surface area to the wing. The higher the flap setting, the lower the pitch angle will be at a maintained speed.

[coa787]

Originally Posted by Bus Driver

Not at all, the nominal deck angle is about 5 degrees increasing to 7-9 during the flare and touchdown (A300-B4). Deck angles will be higher with a flap abnormal but you start to worry about tail strikes around 13 1/2 degrees.

Yeah, when I see the FedEx and UPS A300s landing here at CLE, I always thought that the flare pitch was about eight degrees. Rather high when compared to the flare pitch of the 737s, which is like two or three degrees.

[Polar742]

Originally Posted by coa787

The flap setting also dictates the pitch angle. The slower you fly, the higher the flap setting must be in order to maintain lift because the flaps add more surface area to the wing. The higher the flap setting, the lower the pitch angle will be at a maintained speed.

I reckon the A300 has high lift devices on the leading edges, be they slats or Kreuger Flaps.

Usually a higher-than normal deck angle would indicate a slower than normal speed being flown. Since Vref is based on weight, the deck angle should end up being just about the same pitch regardless of weight.

[coa787]

Originally Posted by Polar742

I reckon the A300 has high lift devices on the leading edges, be they slats or Kreuger Flaps.

Usually a higher-than normal deck angle would indicate a slower than normal speed being flown. Since Vref is based on weight, the deck angle should end up being just about the same pitch regardless of weight.

Yeah, but say you're approaching at Vref+5, I would think that there would be a large difference in pitch if you approach with flaps 1, versus approaching with flaps 30.

[Polar742]

Originally Posted by coa787

Yeah, but say you're approaching at Vref+5, I would think that there would be a large difference in pitch if you approach with flaps 1, versus approaching with flaps 30.

Technically, yes.

But you land with one of 2 flap settings normally. In the whale, a 25 flap landing = about 2.5 degrees of pitch up, 30 is about 1 to 1.5. The EJet I flew landed with Flaps 5 or full. Flaps 5 = about 2.5 degrees pitch up, the Flaps full about 1 to 1.5. This may be pure coincidence, however.

Even in an abnormal situation, the target speed (Ref plus what ever corrections are made) will be adjusted to make the plane safe to fly. This typically comes out to about the same deck angle +/- a couple degrees, just a significantly higher speed.

[BobDDuck]

The RJ2 is only certified for 45 degrees of flaps. The pitch attitude is between 0 and - 1.5 degrees. I've had to do a flaps 20 landing a few times and even then it's only up about a degree or so. In the sim, zero flaps has you up maybe 2 degrees to hold a 3 degree descent profile.

The RJ7 is pretty similar but everything is shifted up about 2 degrees.

[coa787]

Originally Posted by Polar742

Technically, yes.

But you land with one of 2 flap settings normally. In the whale, a 25 flap landing = about 2.5 degrees of pitch up, 30 is about 1 to 1.5. The EJet I flew landed with Flaps 5 or full. Flaps 5 = about 2.5 degrees pitch up, the Flaps full about 1 to 1.5. This may be pure coincidence, however.

Even in an abnormal situation, the target speed (Ref plus what ever corrections are made) will be adjusted to make the plane safe to fly. This typically comes out to about the same deck angle +/- a couple degrees, just a significantly higher speed.

Right. I kinda knew that.

[coa787]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

The RJ2 is only certified for 45 degrees of flaps. The pitch attitude is between 0 and - 1.5 degrees. I've had to do a flaps 20 landing a few times and even then it's only up about a degree or so. In the sim, zero flaps has you up maybe 2 degrees to hold a 3 degree descent profile.

The RJ7 is pretty similar but everything is shifted up about 2 degrees.

Sometimes, I've even seen the CRJ2 with a deck angle of probably -3 degrees, with the flare pitch being about 1 degree. (CLE is home of the regional jet )

[JA Yawd Bwoy]

Originally Posted by coa787

Sometimes, I've even seen the CRJ2 with a deck angle of probably -3 degrees, with the flare pitch being about 1 degree. (CLE is home of the regional jet )

wrong! Its actually EWR!

[coa787]

Originally Posted by JA Yawd Bwoy

wrong! Its actually EWR!

I've actually been in EWR and let me say this, you don't see 777s, 747s, A340s, 767s, or any other large miscellaneous aircraft in CLE, unless it's a diversion or an A300 from UPS or FedEx. There are usually a few 737s, a 757 or two and an A300. The rest are RJs.

[brent p h]

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Originally Posted by Bus Driver

Not at all, the nominal deck angle is about 5 degrees increasing to 7-9 during the flare and touchdown (A300-B4). Deck angles will be higher with a flap abnormal but you start to worry about tail strikes around 13 1/2 degrees.

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Hhmmm. During my observation the aircraft was at a fairly high attitude which increased quite substantially passing through roughly 800 ft agl. (I had to grit my teeth as the nose oscillated higher and higher)!!!

[JA Yawd Bwoy]

Originally Posted by coa787

I've actually been in EWR and let me say this, you don't see 777s, 747s, A340s, 767s, or any other large miscellaneous aircraft in CLE, unless it's a diversion or an A300 from UPS or FedEx. There are usually a few 737s, a 757 or two and an A300. The rest are RJs.

lol, I don't doubt you, I was just poking fun

[coa787]

Originally Posted by JA Yawd Bwoy

lol, I don't doubt you, I was just poking fun