ERJ Flap Question

[BobDDuck]

Is there some sort of MEL or procedure that would have an ERJ climb out with flaps 9 through 11000 feet?

My only thought was it was bumpy down low and it was for an improved climb rate (think short field take off on steriods).

[inside0ut]

Maybe forgot to call flaps up?

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

My only thought was it was bumpy down low and it was for an improved climb rate (think short field take off on steriods).

Except that you don't get a higher climb rate with flaps. You use flaps on a short field takeoff in order to leave the ground sooner (due to reduced stall speed), but thereafter, your climb angle and rate are reduced because of the higher drag.

[Aviator_]

Dude,

Flaps on the ERJ are to be retracted after acc alt, select speed 200 flaps up. Aprox 1,000 - 1,500 ft during the climb flow and re-confirmed with the climb checklist.

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

Is there some sort of MEL or procedure that would have an ERJ climb out with flaps 9 through 11000 feet?

My only thought was it was bumpy down low and it was for an improved climb rate (think short field take off on steriods).

Not necessarily.

Under certain special airports, the flaps are left at 9 degrees to out climb terrain (KRNO comes to mind). The flaps (at ExpressJet) should be retracted after reaching acceleration height. Even on the after takeoff checklist, both pilots are to verify the flaps are indicating 0.

The Vfe on flaps 9 is 250 KIAS and FL200. Typically after 10,000', you're accelerating from 240 to 290. Lets hope there wasn't a flap over-speed! Yikes!

[mikecweb]

Originally Posted by meritflyer

Not necessarily.

Under certain special airports, the flaps are left at 9 degrees to out climb terrain (KRNO comes to mind). The flaps (at ExpressJet) should be retracted after reaching acceleration height. Even on the after takeoff checklist, both pilots are to verify the flaps are indicating 0.

The Vfe on flaps 9 is 250 KIAS and FL200. Typically after 10,000', you're accelerating from 240 to 290. Lets hope there wasn't a flap over-speed! Yikes!

And then the world would end....

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by mikecweb

And then the world would end....

That made so much sense..

[Alchemy]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

Is there some sort of MEL or procedure that would have an ERJ climb out with flaps 9 through 11000 feet?

My only thought was it was bumpy down low and it was for an improved climb rate (think short field take off on steriods).

Not that I know of. It is, unfortunately, a somewhat common mistake since there is no "auto retract" feature triggered by exceeding Vfe9.

My company revised it's after takeoff checklist several years ago requring both pilots to verbally confirm "flaps indicating zero" as part of the after takeoff checklist, usually completed within the first 3-4 thousand feet after takeoff, if not sooner. If I recall correctly, this adddition to the checklist was very effective in reducing flap overspeeds, which could result in lengthy delays due to the required maintenance inspection after they occured.

The only other time I can think of off the top of my head that the flaps would be at nine degrees for climbing would be in the GPWS terrain escape maneuver after 35 degrees pitch attitude is attained with ground contact still imminent. You didn't see any jagged peaks out the window or hear the GPWS screaming at them up there, did you?

[Baronman]

Originally Posted by Alchemy

Not that I know of. It is, unfortunately, a somewhat common mistake since there is no "auto retract" feature triggered by exceeding Vfe9.

My company revised it's after takeoff checklist several years ago requring both pilots to verbally confirm "flaps indicating zero" as part of the after takeoff checklist, usually completed within the first 3-4 thousand feet after takeoff, if not sooner. If I recall correctly, this adddition to the checklist was very effective in reducing flap overspeeds, which could result in lengthy delays due to the required maintenance inspection after they occured.

This is true but flap overspeeds occurrence has climbed ever since. I'm not sure if it's back to the occurrence level it was pre- checklist change but it is close. Chalk one up for complacency.

[Clocks]

Originally Posted by mikecweb

And then the world would end....

Someone posted (so take it with a grain of salt) that a flap overspeed and subsequent inspection cost close to $20,000.

[BobDDuck]

This was out of FAY. So I doubt they were worried about terrain. Not a big deal really. More just wondering if the Jungle Jet had some special features.

That's interesting people forget the flaps on the ERJ. It's darn hard to do in the CRJ as there is a big red line on your airspeed tape at 230 if you forget to get the flaps out of 20 or 8 degrees.

[Minuteman]

Originally Posted by Clocks

Someone posted (so take it with a grain of salt) that a flap overspeed and subsequent inspection cost close to $20,000.

Don't know about the ERJ, but 10 knots past VFE on the 757/767 is where Boeing says an inspection is required ... that's 360 man-hours (~$15,000) plus the loss of use of that aircraft.

[Doug Taylor]

Flap overspeeds are a MASSIVE deal on the 757/767 fleet. In fact, you only extend flaps when you need them for lift, not drag.

On the -88/90 you will generally use flaps and slats for drag so descending at 280 and you need to get down, you'll call for 'slats extend'. On the 75/76, you generally only call for flaps as you decelerate through the maneuvering speeds.

[Stone Cold]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

This was out of FAY. So I doubt they were worried about terrain. Not a big deal really. More just wondering if the Jungle Jet had some special features.

That's interesting people forget the flaps on the ERJ. It's darn hard to do in the CRJ as there is a big red line on your airspeed tape at 230 if you forget to get the flaps out of 20 or 8 degrees.

Seriously, if you have to worry about the red line coming up to warn you about forgetting flaps, you have a bigger problem in the cockpit. How do people forget to bring flaps up? I know, you are in a 121 environment and everything is handed to you, but come on, fly the AIRPLANE!!!

This is not meant to be a slam on RJ's or their drivers, but what happened to aviating?

How may others out there are now even more afraid to get on a RJ???

[Minuteman]

Originally Posted by Stone Cold

Seriously, if you have to worry about the red line coming up to warn you about forgetting flaps, you have a bigger problem in the cockpit. How do people forget to bring flaps up? I know, you are in a 121 environment and everything is handed to you, but come on, fly the AIRPLANE!!!

This is not meant to be a slam on RJ's or their drivers, but what happened to aviating?

How may others out there are now even more afraid to get on a RJ???

Its probably not the same phase of flight you were thinking of, but a lot of overspeeds can happen during go-arounds and, less-forgiveably, places where 250-below-10k isn't applicable.

[Stone Cold]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

Is there some sort of MEL or procedure that would have an ERJ climb out with flaps 9 through 11000 feet?

My only thought was it was bumpy down low and it was for an improved climb rate (think short field take off on steriods).

Originally Posted by alchemy

Not that I know of. It is, unfortunately, a somewhat common mistake since there is no "auto retract" feature triggered by exceeding Vfe9.

My company revised it's after takeoff checklist several years ago requring both pilots to verbally confirm "flaps indicating zero" as part of the after takeoff checklist, usually completed within the first 3-4 thousand feet after takeoff, if not sooner. If I recall correctly, this adddition to the checklist was very effective in reducing flap overspeeds, which could result in lengthy delays due to the required maintenance inspection after they occured.

Originally Posted by Minuteman

Its probably not the same phase of flight you were thinking of, but a lot of overspeeds can happen during go-arounds and, less-forgiveably, places where 250-below-10k isn't applicable.

Unfortunately, this is not the context that I read in this thread. I agree you could get behind the airplane in the situations you talk of, but, that did not sound like the original question, nor in the follow-up on after-takeoff checklists...

Like I said, fly the airplane, especially on a normal takeoff...if things get out of normal, get them as close to normal as possible again, and FLY THE AIRPLANE!

Also, 250 below 10K USUALLY is over water...why would you leave any flaps in? Just curious...

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by Stone Cold

Like I said, fly the airplane, especially on a normal takeoff...if things get out of normal, get them as close to normal as possible again, and FLY THE AIRPLANE!

Do you know what works well is primacy. Nothing resets the situation like "positive rate?"/"gear up!" during windshear events or missed approach procedures.

[Stone Cold]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Do you know what works well is primacy. Nothing resets the situation like "positive rate?"/"gear up!" during windshear events or missed approach procedures.

Maybe I'm just anal after flying with an anal captain for too long, but "standing by on flaps, above green line" works for us to get us back into the mind frame of what we need to do. I know it's an unusual situation, as most of us rarely go around, but it's ingrained in my head, anyways... I won't even call positive rate until I know he/she won't overspeed (if I'm PNF). This is a plane that will "supposedly" retract flaps automatically preventing an overspeed, but I, nor the people I fly with want to take a chance on that...

As far as windshear, isn't it "ride stick shaker until clear, accelerate, above green line, flaps whatever, positive rate, gear up", and then continue doing normal ops, at most places? Inquiring minds, and all...

[Doug Taylor]

Pretty much depend on all that 'auto' crap not working. I've seen plenty of folks bork a landing because the autospoilers or autobrakes didn't work when expected.

[Stone Cold]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Pretty much depend on all that 'auto' crap not working. I've seen plenty of folks bork a landing because the autospoilers or autobrakes didn't work when expected.

Autobrakes...haha. That's a good one. Autospoilers, PF deploys them along with the "auto function" working for our ops. How do airlines do it?

[Doug Taylor]

Pretty much like a Ron Popeil machine.

"Set it and forget it"

But sometimes they don't work so you need to have the SA to deploy them.

[Stone Cold]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Pretty much like a Ron Popeil machine.

"Set it and forget it"

But sometimes they don't work so you need to have the SA to deploy them.

Like I said, you airline people have everything done for you!!!

And, how do you remember that guy's name? Haha

[Doug Taylor]

I have one of those weird brains that can remember every detail about something, but none of what I'm being tested on!

[mikecweb]

Originally Posted by meritflyer

That made so much sense..

Was needed.
I was just laughing at the whole "yikes".
Obviously, flap overspeeds are not something I take lightly.

[BobDDuck]

I don't think this was a case of forgetting them. That said, on the CRJ I've never heard of somebody overspeeding the flaps because they forgot to put them up. Normally it seems to happen that people don't check the speeds before they put them down, or they have them out and catch a big bump and the airspeed jumps.

Go arounds are just normal take offs really. Shouldn't be a problem there. Windshear escapes call for us to keep the configuration as is until clear and then it's just a normal take off/go around.

As I said, I think they were trying to climb at a faster rate to clear the bumps. TGrayson, you're right in a lighter aircraft that the flaps won't help with the climb, but when you have enough thrust you can operate at a much lower airspeed and higher climbing rate with the flaps out. I dunno about the ERJ but on the CRJ we can operate 10 knots above the flap ref speed. Going from flaps 0 to flaps 8 will give us about 20 extra knots to work with, which allows for a slightly better climb rate, at least through 10,000 or so. That said, I don't think I'd do it as it is not in any procedure I've seen for the CRJ.