ERJ thrust (TO-1 or ALT TO-1)

[XJet72]

Hey guys/gals a new question here:

I'm hoping someone can help me out with this question. First what TO mode do you normally use the standard TO-1 or Alt TO-1?

Second, what's the thrust difference. I know the N1 is lower for the ALT TO mode but what I'm curious about is the thrust "rating" or something to that extent.

EX: AE3007-A1P engines on Xjet planes are rated to 8169lbs SL thrust to ISA+19; as are the AE3007-A1E are rated to 8810lbs ISA+19.

The FOM says that the A1P thrust is based on "TO Reserve" and the A1E is based on "Extended TO Reserve" I still don't understand what this means.

Also, the A1 and A1P differences are only the FADEC software...what's that mean, what's different about the software??? The A1E has different software but also somewhat more (advanced?) design.

Guys...please help me out...the ERJ is curious but very fun bird to fly.

Thanks for your help as always


Fletcher R.
KIAH -based

[goredbirds]

First of all, the EMB I fly has A1, and A1/D engines, so don't take this as gospel.

My airline uses ALT T/O - 1 as the standard takeoff setting. We pump it up to T/O -1 for things like contaminated runway, wndsr, rwy limited take off, captain's discretion, etc.

I don't think thrust numbers are published outside of the max ratings you mentioned.

The difference between FADEC software versions exists because the smarty-pants engineers decided the EMB-145 had different thrust requirements than the EMB-140 / 135. Instead of trying to make expensive engine differences they simply altered the software. Therefore, ALT T/O -1 in the 145 will give you more thrust in the 145 than in the 140. Also, in the 145 if you have an engine failure the FADEC gives you T/O which is the max amount of power available. On the 135 if you have an engine failure, the FADEC gives you T/O, which is NOT the max thrust available. To get the absolute maximum amount of power out of the still operating engine, you have to push the thrust levers up past the detent to achieve T/O RSV.

Always remember that with this airplane and these engines the only thing that has authority to give you more thrust is the FADEC. The thrust levers are only suggestions to the computer, which then calculates exactly how much thrust it is willing to give you.

[Alchemy]

First off, open up page 2-10-50 (page 1) of CFM volume 2. It does a pretty good job of explaining all this, but it is a somewhat confusing topic so I can see why you have questions. For the purposes of this discussion, the A1/3 behaves the same as the A1P.

Originally Posted by XJet72

Hey guys/gals a new question here:

I'm hoping someone can help me out with this question. First what TO mode do you normally use the standard TO-1 or Alt TO-1?

You normally use ALT T/O-1. You only use T/O or E-T/O if your takeoff weight does not permit the use of reduced thrust (ALT T/O-1), or if the crew determines that the use of a higher thrust rating would be prudent due to a contaminated runway.

Second, what's the thrust difference. I know the N1 is lower for the ALT TO mode but what I'm curious about is the thrust "rating" or something to that extent.

According to my notes:

ALT T/O-1 = 90% thrust
T/O = 100% thrust
E-TO = 107% thrust
T/O RSV = 110% thrust
E-TO RSV = 117% thrust

EX: AE3007-A1P engines on Xjet planes are rated to 8169lbs SL thrust to ISA+19; as are the AE3007-A1E are rated to 8810lbs ISA+19.

The FOM says that the A1P thrust is based on "TO Reserve" and the A1E is based on "Extended TO Reserve" I still don't understand what this means.

T/O RSV is what is basically the highest power setting you can get out of the A1P engine. E-TO RSV is the highest you can get out of the A1E engine.

According to my notes:

A1P thrust ratings

ALT T/O-1 >>>>>>>>>> For the A1P, losing an engine automatically takes you one
T/O-1 >>>>>>>>>>>>> one level higher (ATTCS). Firewalling the thrust levers takes
T/O RSV >>>>>>>>>>>> you yet another level higher.

Example:

You takeoff in ALT T/O-1. You lose an engine on the takeoff roll. ATTCS automatically increases your rating to T/O-1. Now you move the thrust levers past the detent (firewall them). You have now achieved T/O RSV.


A1E thrust ratings

ALT T/O-1 >>>>>>>>>>>For the A1E, losing an engine automatically takes you one level
T/O >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>higher. Firewallng the thrust lever does NOT take you up
T/O RSV >>>>>>>>>>>>> another level.
E-T/O
E-T/O RSV

Example:

You takeoff in T/O. You lose an engine on the takeoff roll. ATTCS automatically increases you to T/O RSV. You firewall the thrust levers. You are still in T/O RSV. (the reason for this, or so I've heard is that going all the way to E-TO rsv would create to severe a yawing moment during single engine operations, making V1 cuts a little too difficult to handle.)

The only way to get to E-TO RSV when you start from from an ALT T/O-1 or T/O-1 takeoff, is to firewall the thrust levers and press the thurst rating button (the one right next to the climb buttons behind the thrust levers).

Also, the A1 and A1P differences are only the FADEC software...what's that mean, what's different about the software??? The A1E has different software but also somewhat more (advanced?) design.

Guys...please help me out...the ERJ is curious but very fun bird to fly.

Thanks for your help as always


Fletcher R.
KIAH -based

Since the A1E engine is rated for higher thrust, it's internal parts are rated for higher temperatures and greater stress. As a result, the FADEC can be programmed to dump additional fuel into the engine (thereby generating greater thrust). That's just an educated guess by me. This may not necessarily mean the parts in the engine are actually different, it just means that rolls royce went the extra mile to test the A1E series and adequately proved to the various regulating agencies that it performs sufficiently under the stress produced by higher thrust settings.

Hope this helps. If anyone else think I've made an error please feel free to correct me.

[XJet72]

Alchemy:

Thanks for all that detailed information. It helps me understand the bird more. I've always flown aircraft in flight sim that had the A/T so flying the ERJ is whole new experience to me. Like I said though, I have to admit, it's pretty fun

Happy Flying...
Fletcher R
KIAH -based

[Chris_Ford]

Originally Posted by XJet72

Alchemy:

Thanks for all that detailed information. It helps me understand the bird more. I've always flown aircraft in flight sim that had the A/T so flying the ERJ is whole new experience to me. Like I said though, I have to admit, it's pretty fun

Happy Flying...
Fletcher R
KIAH -based

So you're KIAH based in what, flight sim?

[XJet72]

Yes, IAH.

I've been enjoying flying the ERJ on COEx routes. As I've heard on numerous occasions....It's not a hobby...It's a friek'n obsession.

Fletcher

[Alchemy]

Ha, well you certainly fooled me. I guess you can disregard the whole "open your CFM" part of my original message.

[XJet72]

Well, I wanted my aircraft to be just like XJets. I have the following types in my aircraft folder:

SRJ - E135ER
SRJ - E135ER (IGW - SB145)
ERJ - E145EP
LRJ - E145LR
LR2 - E145LR (IGW - SB145)
XRJ - E145XR

P.S. Yes, I have found that with max pax and near Max TO weight, the LR2 will not climb at 290kts to 0.65M unless you climb at like 200-300fpm. I can usually maintain about 1000frm at around 0.61 or in that general area.

Why they decided to "SB145" the planes I don't know, yeah you can get more pax on but you pay for it in the climb...geeze

Anyway, happy flying...

[goredbirds]

"For the purposes of this discussion, the A1/3 behaves the same as the A1P." - Alchemy

I know nothing whatsoever about the A1P, but your description of the system doesn't match how our A1/3 operates...

It's just a difference between what the thrust moods actually do, because in our 145's, T/O is the same as T/O RSV in the 140 / 135, and there is no such thing as E-T/O RSV.

Just splitting hairs, but thought I'd point it out.

[XJet72]

"It's just a difference between what the thrust moods actually do, because in our 145's, T/O is the same as T/O RSV in the 140 / 135, and there is no such thing as E-T/O RSV.

Just splitting hairs, but thought I'd point it out."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

E-TO RSV is in reference in CFM to the A1E engine only on the 145XR

If I remember correctly from what I was told by actual pilots is that the XR has slightly different thrust management...I think. ahhhhh poooy, I forgot what someone told me already. Anyway thanks for all the input, it does help me out. Cheers!

Fletcher

[Clocks]

Originally Posted by XJet72

"It's just a difference between what the thrust moods actually do, because in our 145's, T/O is the same as T/O RSV in the 140 / 135, and there is no such thing as E-T/O RSV.

Just splitting hairs, but thought I'd point it out."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

E-TO RSV is in reference in CFM to the A1E engine only on the 145XR

If I remember correctly from what I was told by actual pilots is that the XR has slightly different thrust management...I think. ahhhhh poooy, I forgot what someone told me already. Anyway thanks for all the input, it does help me out. Cheers!

Fletcher

The A1/E engine will never jump between the normal settings and the E settings after an engine failure unless you hit the thrust button.

So under all scenarios you can jump 90%-100%-110% with either engine, or 107% to 117% on the A1/E, depending on the power setting on takeoff (either "normal" or an E setting). But the airplane will never automatically transition between the two different kinds of power settings (i.e. 100% to 107%, or 110% to 117%, or 90% to 117%).

That was all said above, I just retyped it shorter.

Anyways an engine failure after V1 is "power loss - max thrust" , meaning firewall the thrust levers. I was told reaching down and hitting the thrust button to attain E-T/O-RSV is a "we're still going to hit the mountain/trees/buildings" type of decision.

[Alchemy]

Originally Posted by goredbirds

"For the purposes of this discussion, the A1/3 behaves the same as the A1P." - Alchemy

I know nothing whatsoever about the A1P, but your description of the system doesn't match how our A1/3 operates...

It's just a difference between what the thrust moods actually do, because in our 145's, T/O is the same as T/O RSV in the 140 / 135, and there is no such thing as E-T/O RSV.

Just splitting hairs, but thought I'd point it out.

First you probably have the old regular A1 or some other type of fadec software on your 145's that makes it completely different from ours. If it's not A1/3, A1P, or A1E I don't know anything. I think we used to have the plain A1 on our EP's but they've since been upgraded to A1P. I don't think our old A1's had T/O-RSV either, but it's been a few years since we updated all of them and I can't remember.

Second, I thought I made it clear that E T/O modes are only applicable to A1E engines. If not I apologize. The E T/O and E T/O-RSV modes are only available with the A1E engines (at least among the engines types at my airline).

[Baronman]

Originally Posted by XJet72

Well, I wanted my aircraft to be just like XJets. I have the following types in my aircraft folder:

SRJ - E135ER
SRJ - E135ER (IGW - SB145)
ERJ - E145EP
LRJ - E145LR
LR2 - E145LR (IGW - SB145)
XRJ - E145XR

You left out the SLJ! The 135-LR....The 135 with the LR tanks, according to my AC list we have 18 of them. (While we have 12 of the 135-ER).

[goredbirds]

Originally Posted by Alchemy

Second, I thought I made it clear that E T/O modes are only applicable to A1E engines. If not I apologize. The E T/O and E T/O-RSV modes are only available with the A1E engines (at least among the engines types at my airline).

Sorry dude, I wasn't calling you out... I didn't even know there was such a thing as an A1E...

[Alchemy]

Originally Posted by goredbirds

Sorry dude, I wasn't calling you out... I didn't even know there was such a thing as an A1E...

Eh, no worries, I'm certainly no systems genius. At least this thread helped me review for my recurrent PC yesterday.

[XJet72]

Originally Posted by Baronman

You left out the SLJ! The 135-LR....The 135 with the LR tanks, according to my AC list we have 18 of them. (While we have 12 of the 135-ER).

...that I did, sorry about that, and it is in my a/c folder as well. I don't know what I was thinking. SLJ - E135LR Thanks for pointing that out.

Fletcher R
IAH -based

[Van_Hoolio]

Just curious, where'd you get a copy of ExpressJet's FOM?

[XJet72]

My partner was a F/A for XJet at one time. He was based in IAH but tried out the Branded side out of SAT but that didn't work out for him.

Fletcher
IAH -based