How airliners climb

[jtsastre]

Out of curiosity, how do most of the airliners (jets & t-props) climb? Do you do constant speed or constant rate climbs? I know when I flew the Citation 500, we climbed at a constant rate, somewhere around 3000'/min. Just curious if you shoot for a specific rate or speed when initially climbing and during cruise climb. I guess this would also go for the descents as well. Thanks!

Jtsastre

[Chris_Ford]

constant speed, which varies at different altitudes.

E.g.

250 kts to 10,000. 310 to the mach crossover then climb at .75

[SoCalAprch]

Fly it like you wanna fly it. I usually just hand fly it and pitch for an airspeed that won't get me violated for exceeding any speeds. If my airspeed is increasing then pitch up a little etc... Once I get sick of hand flying it I will turn on the AP and let the VS mode do the rest. Fly it like you would a Cessna only alot faster.

[SoCalAprch]

Originally Posted by Chris_Ford

constant speed, which varies at different altitudes.

E.g.

250 kts to 10,000. 310 to the mach crossover then climb at .75

What rate do you get at .75? What plane?

[Chris_Ford]

Originally Posted by SoCalAprch

Fly it like you wanna fly it. I usually just hand fly it and pitch for an airspeed that won't get me violated for exceeding any speeds. If my airspeed is increasing then pitch up a little etc... Once I get sick of hand flying it I will turn on the AP and let the VS mode do the rest. Fly it like you would a Cessna only alot faster.

That's a horrible way to do it. Your company's protocol is there for a reason. ATC decompression, fuel savings, whatever. Don't just do "what you think works" because often there are plenty of reasons that it doesn't necessarily work.

[Alchemy]

Originally Posted by Chris_Ford

That's a horrible way to do it. Your company's protocol is there for a reason. ATC decompression, fuel savings, whatever. Don't just do "what you think works" because often there are plenty of reasons that it doesn't necessarily work.

I agree, the company's climb profile should be followed whenever practical.

At my airline it's either 250/290/.60 or 250/290/.65 depending on the aircraft type.

If I'm overweight or running behind schedule I may ask ATC permission to climb at 600 fpm which will burn a few extra pounds and get you there a few minutes faster most of the time. Occasions where I do that are very rare. I'm sure in the citiation 600 fpm will put you through redline, but on a full RJ it will give you somewhere in the neighborhood of 300/.70M.

Most of the mainline jets seem to climb at barber pole (or close to it) from my experience in the j/s.

[Soul Brotha']

250 to 10,000. Then we transition to 290. In the CRJ the climb performance goes to crap after about 20K. It will hold 290 usually 24K-27K but it depends on your weight. In that range it's about 1000FPM then it goes down very quickly. It will climb at .70-.72 after that but you are only doing 500fpm.

[SoCalAprch]

Originally Posted by Chris_Ford

That's a horrible way to do it. Your company's protocol is there for a reason. ATC decompression, fuel savings, whatever. Don't just do "what you think works" because often there are plenty of reasons that it doesn't necessarily work.

You didn't answer my question about what climbs at .75. Thats alot better than our little ERJ can do. So how if your profile is .75 and mine is .56 would that do anything for ATC. If anything I think it will piss ATC off as your gonna be coming up behine me pretty fast. I try to get close to redline (250 below 10) and around 310 after and that will give you between 2000 and 3000fpm depending on altitude. Then turn on the VS or Speed Mode and let it do its thing. Like I said I don't know what you are flying but in the ERJ it is easy to hand fly and most all the captains I fly with hand fly it up, some fly faster, some climb faster. And nothing is ever done that would be violating any FAR or limitation on the aircraft, just sometimes it would be impractical and stupid to do .56 all the way up to 35,000 ft. So take it how you want to but sometimes you have to be a pilot and make a decision on your own.

Originally Posted by Alchemy

I agree, the company's climb profile should be followed whenever practical.

At my airline it's either 250/290/.60 or 250/290/.65 depending on the aircraft type.

If I'm overweight or running behind schedule I may ask ATC permission to climb at 600 fpm which will burn a few extra pounds and get you there a few minutes faster most of the time. Occasions where I do that are very rare. I'm sure in the citiation 600 fpm will put you through redline, but on a full RJ it will give you somewhere in the neighborhood of 300/.70M.

Most of the mainline jets seem to climb at barber pole (or close to it) from my experience in the j/s.

Per our climb profile: 240 below 10,000 then .56 above 10,000. And it states that these are just Manufacturers Profiles.

[Cptnchia]

Originally Posted by Alchemy

I agree, the company's climb profile should be followed whenever practical.

Most of the mainline jets seem to climb at barber pole (or close to it) from my experience in the j/s.

Good advice on the first point. As to climbing at the barber pole or close to it, that depends on if it's the last leg home and you're flying at "commuter speed!"

At Southernjets, it's 250kts to 10,000, then whatever speed your ECON number gives you, though it's usually around 300 kts til you crossover to your ECON mach #. The ECON number is a number that we put in to the FMS that the dispatcher comes up with after crunching winds, FF, routing, weather etc. At least that's what you're supposed to do, although some guys put their own in (see commuter speed.)

On another note, not sure about all planes, but the Boeings I've flown, it's better to climb in VNAV instead of VS. VNAV gives you speed protection, ie you won't over or underspeed. VS will hold the pitch as airspeed bleeds off to the stall. Not a good thing. Yes, yes I know, the CRJs don't have VNAV. There's the exception to every rule.

[Cptnchia]

Originally Posted by SoCalAprch

You didn't answer my question about what climbs at .75. Thats alot better than our little ERJ can do. So how if your profile is .75 and mine is .56 would that do anything for ATC. If anything I think it will piss ATC off as your gonna be coming up behine me pretty fast.

No wonder I'm always getting slowed down and vectored around regional jets! By the way, the 757/767 will climb at .75. The ERs will do even better than that. Of course I fly them domsetically, so we're alot lighter than what Doug is used to.

[Nick]

Originally Posted by SoCalAprch

I try to get close to redline (250 below 10) and around 310 after and that will give you between 2000 and 3000fpm depending on altitude.

It sounds like you are talking about descending.

No normally-loaded ERJ will do 3000FPM in the climb at 310 KIAS.

You say you fly the EMB-145. So, what are you doing to that thing to get it to climb at 3000FPM at 310 KIAS???

[mikecweb]

250 ~10k
270 til mach then .74.
Unless your late then 250 ~10
And 350 till 500fpm then 500fpm til the winds are better.

[rjmore]

310-320 until we get into mach numbers then whatever the econ number is. It is usually .82-.83, we climb at the planned cruise speed.

[100LLguy]

Originally Posted by Alchemy

I agree, the company's climb profile should be followed whenever practical.

At my airline it's either 250/290/.60 or 250/290/.65 depending on the aircraft type.

If I'm overweight or running behind schedule I may ask ATC permission to climb at 600 fpm which will burn a few extra pounds and get you there a few minutes faster most of the time. Occasions where I do that are very rare. I'm sure in the citiation 600 fpm will put you through redline, but on a full RJ it will give you somewhere in the neighborhood of 300/.70M.

Most of the mainline jets seem to climb at barber pole (or close to it) from my experience in the j/s.

ATC has a general idea what you will be climbing at....but to ask permission to climb at 600ft/min? Wow....(nerd)

[Alchemy]

Originally Posted by 100LLguy

ATC has a general idea what you will be climbing at....but to ask permission to climb at 600ft/min? Wow....(nerd)

Try climbing out of LA or NYC at 600 fpm a few times without letting anybody know and tell me how that works out for you. It's common courtesy in my opinion to let center know if you're going to do something like that. You're going to chew up a lot of vertical airspace with a climb that shallow. But hey, if you prefer to hear the angry controller instructing you to give him best rate through FL250, that's your perrogative I suppose, or perhaps just indicative of your inexperience. Unless of course you're in a CR2....then ATC probably expects it all the time.

[jtsastre]

Thanks for the replies!

Jtsastre

[SoCalAprch]

Originally Posted by Nick

It sounds like you are talking about descending.

No normally-loaded ERJ will do 3000FPM in the climb at 310 KIAS.

You say you fly the EMB-145. So, what are you doing to that thing to get it to climb at 3000FPM at 310 KIAS???

Iv had it get 2500 or so when you just cross 10 and pitch down to accelerate. I dunno I never really tried to put it into memory what I was getting at a certain speed. This weekend I will see what it is giving me at 300ish.

[Chris_Ford]

Or you could just fly the profile...

[SoCalAprch]

Originally Posted by Chris_Ford

Or you could just fly the profile...

You need to relax a little bit man. I'm just stating how I have seen my captains do it and how I do it. There is nothing unsafe about it at all. These climb profiles were not even stressed in our training, in fact they had us speed hold 200 in our training and on our check ride which is not even per our "Climb Profile". We have a climb setting, we set the throttles into the detent and fly the plane. Usually a few knots under red line. What are you flying and who do you fly for? Sounds like you may work for the FAA.

[Chris_Ford]

So you have no problem straying from what's in the FOM? Alcohol rules too?

You know why you don't get paid like a professional? Because you don't act like one. Professionals fly the way they're supposed to, even when nobody is watching.

[SoCalAprch]

Originally Posted by Chris_Ford

So you have no problem straying from what's in the FOM? Alcohol rules too?

You know why you don't get paid like a professional? Because you don't act like one. Professionals fly the way they're supposed to, even when nobody is watching.

Lighten up. I have never broken a FAR and safety always comes first when Im flying. I am a professional and always hold myself to the highest standards. And I hate to break it to you but right now you bringing up alcohol and calling someone unprofessional is probably the farthest thing from professional in this industry. Don't try to drag my name through the dirt because my experience thus far has been different than your. But arguing with someone who probably has no 121 experience isn't what Doug intended when creating these forums. Next time I need some advice from a 22 year old who is too embarrassed to admit where he flys I will kindly ask.

[Chris_Ford]

Originally Posted by SoCalAprch

Lighten up. I have never broken a FAR and safety always comes first when Im flying. I am a professional and always hold myself to the highest standards.

But you don't hold yourself to the standards put forth in your FOM? Look, all you have to say is "I HAVE NO PROBLEM BLATANTLY DISREGARDING THE FOM ON ISSUES I DEEM UNIMPORTANT"

And I hate to break it to you but right now you bringing up alcohol and calling someone unprofessional is probably the farthest thing from professional in this industry.

I think disregarding company policy is pretty unprofessional. You sound like a few Pinnacle pilots a few years ago who 410d it.

Don't try to drag my name through the dirt because my experience thus far has been different than your. But arguing with someone who probably has no 121 experience isn't what Doug intended when creating these forums.

O........kay...... So let's hypothetically say I have no 121 experience...

You're telling someone who isn't in the airline business that it's okay for pilots to decide which rules they want to follow? That sets a horrible example. How about you do your damn job the way it's supposed to be done, and despite what you think, that's the way your company says, end of story.

Next time I need some advice from a 22 year old who is too embarrassed to admit where he flys I will kindly ask.

I might be 22, but at least I know how to conjugate the verb "fly"

[higney85]

Sometimes its better to leave people alone. The guy has just stated what others do to fuel to overall conversation. Heck- Am I in the wrong in using VS mode to accelerate from 250-290 at 10K' and then climb at 290 per profile? Our profile calls for speed mode but that will have the CRJ pretty much level off and do less than 500fpm until 290 followed by abruptly pitching to try and hold 290. Sometimes you just need to "fly the plane". The FOM/CFM and profiles are there to standardize the operation not to tell you how to fly. Does your manual tell you when and how to flare? crosswind? You are given a landing requirement and a speed- the "Technique" is up to you. Some use a crab, some slip. Some handfly, some use the A/P. Some use speed mode, some use pitch, others use vertical speed. The CFM/FOM allow "Technique" to be used as long as it is done per standards. As always "safety first" but sometimes you need to just fly the plane.

O and don't knock the young guys!

The original post is "how airliners climb" and that should be a culmination of various aircraft profiles and various company requirements. For example after the "pinnacle guys 410d it"- (your words) we were limited to FL370 and cannot climb slower than 250/.70. This is obviously the CR2. I do not even know the profile for the Cr9's here because I am not about to commute and make the same money to fly a bigger jet. Something tells me though that the profile would be different and each CA and FO would have a different "technique".

[Nick]

Originally Posted by SoCalAprch

Next time I need some advice from a 22 year old who is too embarrassed to admit where he flys I will kindly ask.

There are many people on this forum and lots of other online forums that do not openly disclose who they fly for, no matter how obvious they make it in their posts. In some instances, these people are afforded a bit more freedom in what they can say and what they can write about what they saw on their last trip, the last captain/FO that they flew with, the last time they saw problems at the hub, the downfalls of their training department, etc. If someone does not disclose their employer it is probably not because they are embarrassed about where they work, but rather they would prefer to simply be a user who flies the x-xxx airplane for an un-named airline.

Part two: I'm 23 years old, so maybe my posts count more, and I will never be able to get a normally loaded ERJ to climb steadily at 310 knots and achieve a 2500FPM climb. The thing might not even be able to do that empty.

[SoCalAprch]

Originally Posted by Nick

Part two: I'm 23 years old, so maybe my posts count more, and I will never be able to get a normally loaded ERJ to climb steadily at 310 knots and achieve a 2500FPM climb. The thing might not even be able to do that empty.

You are right about the 2500 FPM. The 135s can get close to 2500 at 270 at the lower altitudes. That I admit was off. However that still doesn't give anybody, a cessna driver or a 777 driver, the right to call anyone unprofessional in any public form. Especially when you don't know me and try to bring alcohol up in an aviation forum. When someone who doesn't know you starts throwing stuff around in an open arena it crosses a fine line. Ford grow up. Stop calling names and get a life and stop taking out your pent up frustration on public internet forms.