NACO 10 nm circle

[tgrayson]

I'm having a discussion with NACO about their including on the chart legend an explanation of the large, 10 nm circle found on many NACO plates. I'm concerned because I've found that very many instrument pilots think this circle denotes the protected area for the procedure turn, which is not true. So my question is this:

Do currently believe, or have you ever believed, that the 10 nm circle on NACO charts depicted the protected area for the PT?

[DE727UPS]

I thought the purpose of the circle was that everything inside is drawn to scale.

[minitour]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

I thought the purpose of the circle was that everything inside is drawn to scale.

Exactly.

And, IMHO, that's dumb. Just make the terminal charts all to scale (like Jepps) and you can avoid all of that printing (ink) cost.

-mini

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

I thought the purpose of the circle was that everything inside is drawn to scale.

Actually, the lady tells me that everything on the planview is drawn to scale, unless there are dashed rings depicting feeder or enroute facilities. The 10nm circle is described only in the Instrument Flying Handbook. Not even mentioned in the Chart Users Guide.

[ctab5060X]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

I thought the purpose of the circle was that everything inside is drawn to scale.

That is what I thought as well.

Originally Posted by tgrayson

Actually, the lady tells me that everything on the planview is drawn to scale, unless there are dashed rings depicting feeder or enroute facilities. The 10nm circle is described only in the Instrument Flying Handbook. Not even mentioned in the Chart Users Guide.

Find it kind of amusing that in the chapter of 2007 Instrument Flying Handbook (where it mentions the 10nm circle) that all the figures are a mix of both NACO charts and Jepp charts.

Question: Why not just pick one and go with it? I mean, if they can contract out the FSS to Lockheed, why not contract out charts to Jeppesen? Just a thought...

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by ctab5060X

Question: Why not just pick one and go with it? I mean, if they can contract out the FSS to Lockheed, why not contract out charts to Jeppesen? Just a thought...

I think some of the flight training stuff is contracted out now, too, such as the Airplane Flying Handbook, etc. However, if the FAA contracted out the charts, that would only leave once source of charting capability left in the US. Jepp would have monopoly power and that couldn't be good.

[VDEE7]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

So my question is this:

Do currently believe, or have you ever believed, that the 10 nm circle on NACO charts depicted the protected area for the PT?

Yes, I've been mislead before with this 10M Ring and I've seen alot of students with this wrong understanding.
Thanks for bringing it up, Good observation!

[aloft]

Originally Posted by VDEE7

Yes, I've been mislead before...

It's "misled".

[ctab5060X]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

I think some of the flight training stuff is contracted out now, too, such as the Airplane Flying Handbook, etc. However, if the FAA contracted out the charts, that would only leave once source of charting capability left in the US. Jepp would have monopoly power and that couldn't be good.

True. We all know the situation with Lockheed and the FSS, and that is definitely not good, but Jeppesen is a proven chart source and it would take a lot of confusion out of instrument flying if they only had one publisher. The least they could do would be to standardize all the charts.

Just my opinion.

[Goldmember]

Aren't the Naco charts going 100% digital in '09? I thought I read where they were no longer going to be printed and you had to get them online and print them yourself.

[ctab5060X]

Originally Posted by Goldmember

Aren't the Naco charts going 100% digital in '09? I thought I read where they were no longer going to be printed and you had to get them online and print them yourself.

That is going to suck big time if they do. If they do that, they might as well stop making NACO charts because a lot of people will go to Jepps. I know I will.

THere is no way I will be able to afford to print all the charts I need. That is a whole lot of printing for all the possible approaches at all the possible airports I might land at in the event of an emergency. I would much rather pay to have the bound issues and know I have everything I just might ever need rather than use up almost all of a black ink cartridge every 56 days and possibly miss something important.

Just thinking out loud here...what if... printers break/ no computer or printer with a last minute change of plans/ website crashes...sort of stuff happens?

[minitour]

Originally Posted by ctab5060X

That is going to suck big time if they do. If they do that, they might as well stop making NACO charts because a lot of people will go to Jepps. I know I will.

THere is no way I will be able to afford to print all the charts I need. That is a whole lot of printing for all the possible approaches at all the possible airports I might land at in the event of an emergency. I would much rather pay to have the bound issues and know I have everything I just might ever need rather than use up almost all of a black ink cartridge every 56 days and possibly miss something important.

Just thinking out loud here...what if... printers break/ no computer or printer with a last minute change of plans/ website crashes...sort of stuff happens?

E-F-B

-mini

[ctab5060X]

Originally Posted by minitour

E-F-B

-mini

Love to have one...just have to convince the future Mrs. ctab of that.

Although, it would still be best if you had paper backups.

[minitour]

Originally Posted by ctab5060X

Love to have one...just have to convince the future Mrs. ctab of that.

Although, it would still be best if you had paper backups.

They're amazing. When I do part 91 flying, I carry no paper...at all...

If you do like paper, however, you can print off the charts you'll be needing and put them in a 1" binder for the whole trip.

It's amazing how reliable they are though...and you can turn 40 lbs of paper in charts alone into a 3 lb. tablet pc. Now put your GOM, Op Specs, MEL, Manifest, W&B, AFMs, etc. on it and you've removed a lot more paper (weight) from the aircraft.

I keep hoping we'll go EFB but I'm not holding my breath. Still, in "weight critical" airplanes like a Baron, saving weight any way possible would be nice from a business point of view. The less weight you have to carry in "stuff" the more $$$ you can put in the back.

They aren't that expensive either. Mine was around $2000 but I got the bluetooth GPS with it so it overlays my position on the terminal and enroute charts (not the SIDs or STARs since they aren't to scale) and a few other goodies. You can get 'em for ~$1200 if you shop smart. The software/charts is about $85/month. To use it for 135, I'd have to get the CD updates which is another $85/year (and get it approved, of course) but for just part 91, I see no need to not just do the updates online.

-mini

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by minitour

I keep hoping we'll go EFB but I'm not holding my breath. Still, in "weight critical" airplanes like a Baron, saving weight any way possible would be nice from a business point of view.

Removing 185lbs from the right seat would be a start.

[ctab5060X]

Originally Posted by minitour

They're amazing. When I do part 91 flying, I carry no paper...at all...

If you do like paper, however, you can print off the charts you'll be needing and put them in a 1" binder for the whole trip.

It's amazing how reliable they are though...and you can turn 40 lbs of paper in charts alone into a 3 lb. tablet pc. Now put your GOM, Op Specs, MEL, Manifest, W&B, AFMs, etc. on it and you've removed a lot more paper (weight) from the aircraft.

I keep hoping we'll go EFB but I'm not holding my breath. Still, in "weight critical" airplanes like a Baron, saving weight any way possible would be nice from a business point of view. The less weight you have to carry in "stuff" the more $$$ you can put in the back.

They aren't that expensive either. Mine was around $2000 but I got the bluetooth GPS with it so it overlays my position on the terminal and enroute charts (not the SIDs or STARs since they aren't to scale) and a few other goodies. You can get 'em for ~$1200 if you shop smart. The software/charts is about $85/month. To use it for 135, I'd have to get the CD updates which is another $85/year (and get it approved, of course) but for just part 91, I see no need to not just do the updates online.

-mini

Thanks for the info.

I got to use one last year when I flew right seat with a friend of the family in his boss's Falcon 10. Very nice. I remember him talking about how much it cost to maintain it and paper...

For now, as long as my employer is providing the charts, I am good not to have one. My route doesn't even come close to maxing out the Commander and thankfully all the approach charts I really need are grouped into three books.

If I ever get back into flying IFR myself, I will definitely look into one. Got plans down the road a ways to possibly own a decent IFR airplane and I think one (maybe two) of these would definitely be written into the overall cost of the airplane

[minitour]

Originally Posted by Ian J

Removing 185lbs from the right seat would be a start.

Amen.

..especially when they can't keep their hands off. You do the cruise checklist, grab the book to do the mx sheet and look back up to see hands adjusting the mixtures, trim, etc.

Nothing pisses me off more than someone #####ing with my flight controls when it's my leg.

*pant* *pant* *pant*
I think I'm done.

Thanks

-mini

[minitour]

Originally Posted by ctab5060X

If I ever get back into flying IFR myself, I will definitely look into one. Got plans down the road a ways to possibly own a decent IFR airplane and I think one (maybe two) of these would definitely be written into the overall cost of the airplane

You won't be sorry.

-mini

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by minitour

Amen.

..especially when they can't keep their hands off. You do the cruise checklist, grab the book to do the mx sheet and look back up to see hands adjusting the mixtures, trim, etc.

Nothing pisses me off more than someone #####ing with my flight controls when it's my leg.

*pant* *pant* *pant*
I think I'm done.

Thanks

-mini

Oh no no no no.

Unless he's about to kill us, can't reach something, or if he can't synch the props well enough to prevent me from going insane, I don't touch anything when it's his leg - and he damn sure doesn't touch anything during mine!

[taseal]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

I thought the purpose of the circle was that everything inside is drawn to scale.

wow, i learned something today

but then again, I don't use them too much.... jepps mostly