VLJs The new doctor killer?

[nocturnalaviator]

I would like to know some opinions on these new VLJs or very light jets in terms of safety, ie pilot proficiency. In an age where almost every new aircraft is now automated and glass does this impose a threat to safety? Reliance and obediance to a computer rather than physical input and troubleshooting, could that lead to a more complacent pilot? (Granted, and lets be realistic some airplanes mostly heavy iron just need an autopilot) And with these VLJs becoming more frequent do you feel the accident record will pierce the ceiling? I've heard expressions such as, "it will be one big cluster F***!" and that, "the slightest aircraft error or glitch will cause a major problem with some unproficient pilots" along with, "because they can afford to buy it." Flight Safety and a few other academies will have contracts to train in these new light jet aircraft. What do you need to bring to the table other than money to receive training on these specific types of a/c?

[calcapt]

Originally Posted by nocturnalaviator

(Granted, and lets be realistic some airplanes mostly heavy iron just need an autopilot).........

Can you explain what you are trying to say here?

[JEP]

Originally Posted by nocturnalaviator

..... (Granted, and lets be realistic some airplanes mostly heavy iron just need an autopilot) .....

Really, why don't you ask Doug about how well the a/p would have handled his day in Chicago(I think) some time ago. Are you saying you can take a 76 across the pond with just the a/p/? Didn't think so

What do you need to bring to the table other than money to receive training on these specific types of a/c?

An attitude that you don't know everything and more than likely a certain TT and of course a multi/IFR-ticket.

[minitour]

An autopilot is great.



....as long as nothing goes wrong.

-mini

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by calcapt

Can you explain what you are trying to say here?

Cmom CALCAPT, don't become hypersensitive. We know what he means. His point of VLJs and heavy irons are slightly similar in that with training on flight directors, Garmins, etc. it is easy to fly nominal ops.

Let the technology break. . .how deep are those pilot skills? Heavy irons? Never a problem, never an issue. Can the same be said for VLJ pilots?

I didn't take his comment as a negative towards any pilots PAID to fly.

[calcapt]

Originally Posted by MFT1Air

Cmom CALCAPT, don't become hypersensitive. We know what he means. His point of VLJs and heavy irons are slightly similar in that with training on flight directors, Garmins, etc. it is easy to fly nominal ops.

Let the technology break. . .how deep are those pilot skills? Heavy irons? Never a problem, never an issue. Can the same be said for VLJ pilots?

I didn't take his comment as a negative towards any pilots PAID to fly.

Can you explain what you are trying to say here?

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by minitour

An autopilot is great.



....as long as nothing goes wrong.

-mini

Autopilots, even the highly automated ones are a great tool.

However, the good ones will do exactly what you tell them to do, good or bad.

The others will do most of what you tell it to do and a good handful of 'other'.

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by nocturnalaviator

I would like to know some opinions on these new VLJs or very light jets in terms of safety, ie pilot proficiency. In an age where almost every new aircraft is now automated and glass does this impose a threat to safety?

Over-reliance on automation and refusal to understand just because a system is automated does not necessarily mean that having a deep systems knowledge is no necessary.

Reliance and obediance to a computer rather than physical input and troubleshooting, could that lead to a more complacent pilot?

Not complacent, but blissfully ignorant. Case-in-point, a new pilot will execute a descent when the VNAV "football" suggests it, a seasoned pilot already has a figure in his head when he should commence decent and the VNAV "football" just confirms it.

(Granted, and lets be realistic some airplanes mostly heavy iron just need an autopilot)

Au contraire mon fraire!

And with these VLJs becoming more frequent do you feel the accident record will pierce the ceiling?

Not with the weakness of the dollar. Once people start feeling "rich" again, there'll be more people whose first aircraft on a fresh ticket may be a VLJ. Once that happens, yes, I do beleive it's the new (jet powered) V-Tail Attorney Killer.

What do you need to bring to the table other than money to receive training on these specific types of a/c?

Experience. More systems knowledge, situational awareness, decision-making ability (just because it's got anti-ice doesn't necessarily mean you trudge through moderate for hours) and the other things that got left out of the pre-sales brochure.

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by calcapt

Can you explain what you are trying to say here?

Automation doesn't fly airplanes; people fly airplanes. You'll have to help me here, but I can't think of any organization that will let a multi-engine private pilot fly a twin engine jet . . .unless they own it, so it takes someone with significant pilot skills and experience to fly an aircraft commonly flown by more experienced professional pilots.

[nocturnalaviator]

Yeah i'm talking about the weekend warrior.

[Doug Taylor]

It also depends a lot on attitude.

I'm kind of a 'weekend warrior' in the 76 because I do about two or three landings a month, go a vast amount of without flying between trips.

HOWEVER, I now have recurrent every six months, I have two other crewmembers and I review systems and procedures regularly. It's highly automated, arguably the best "light twin" widebody aircraft ever made, but it will eat your lunch if you're not careful.

I get the feeling you're working on a paper...

[MFT1Air]

Cougar Fridays!!!!!

Sorry, I digressed!

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by nocturnalaviator

Yeah i'm talking about the weekend warrior.

Hmmm, you think a weekend warrior is going to buy a VLJ? Seems to me as if insurance requirements would become so strict to minimize that from happening. I mean, seems to me they would be pressing for extremely high experience and flight times per year to fly these aircraft.

[nocturnalaviator]

If you build it they will come. I know a guy who bought a malibu just because, told me a story when he was single pilot ifr @ 240 from san-phl. He declared an emergency over a vacuum failure in class B airspace on a picture perfect vfr day. He told the story saying, "you just need to know how to work the system." The DE had fun with that guy's pink slip on his IFR multi ride. The guy lived in a fantasy world where everything is perfect. Yes I believe a weekend warrior will buy a VLJ just because they can.

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by nocturnalaviator

If you build it they will come. I know a guy who bought a malibu just because, told me a story when he was single pilot ifr @ 240 from san-phl. He declared an emergency over a vacuum failure in class B airspace on a picture perfect vfr day. He told the story saying, "you just need to know how to work the system." The DE had fun with that guy's pink slip on his IFR multi ride. The guy lived in a fantasy world where everything is perfect. Yes I believe a weekend warrior will buy a VLJ just because they can.

. . .and I do believe that as well. In these situations, I do hope the insurance folks work hard to ensure they insure no pilots in these types of aircraft until they have the experience/proficiency.

[nocturnalaviator]

here, here!

[falconvalley]

I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who thinks some instructors are teaching too much reliance on the a/p. This isn't a reference to you, nocturnalaviatior, just a generalization. I'm more of a "hands on" kind of pilot. a/p is great, but it should be a stress-relieving tool, not a save-all.

[killbilly]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

However, the good ones will do exactly what you tell them to do, good or bad.

Darn things must be written for Linux...

[RPJ]

Originally Posted by MFT1Air

. . .and I do believe that as well. In these situations, I do hope the insurance folks work hard to ensure they insure no pilots in these types of aircraft until they have the experience/proficiency.

ALL of the VLJ companies will not allow a pilot to take possession of a plane and fly solo until they have been signed off by a "factory" pilot. There is no specified time limit. It is when the "factory" pilot feels good and ready to give the purchaser the insurance/release sign-off.

DPE SH out of Cable was telling me that he will be one of the "factory" pilots for Eclipse jet. He explained that Eclipse estimated for an average pilot it would take 45-60 days of riding with a "factory" pilot in order to receive the sign-off. He also mentioned that they have a secondary plan for pilots that are not very good to receive reduced "factory" pilot rates for long-term training, I.E. over 6 months.

The repeat of doctor/lawyer killer equipment can be dramatically reduced with very thorough initial and recurrent VLJ training.

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by RPJ

ALL of the VLJ companies will not allow a pilot to take possession of a plane and fly solo until they have been signed off by a "factory" pilot. There is no specified time limit. It is when the "factory" pilot feels good and ready to give the purchaser the insurance/release sign-off.

DPE SH out of Cable was telling me that he will be one of the "factory" pilots for Eclipse jet. He explained that Eclipse estimated for an average pilot it would take 45-60 days of riding with a "factory" pilot in order to receive the sign-off. He also mentioned that they have a secondary plan for pilots that are not very good to receive reduced "factory" pilot rates for long-term training, I.E. over 6 months.

The repeat of doctor/lawyer killer equipment can be dramatically reduced with very thorough initial and recurrent VLJ training.

I personally am not comfortable with this "factory" pilot signoff. Additionally, 45-60 days of "riding" with someone? Quantify that in flight hours, please? Can I also believe places like SIMCOM and Flight Safety are providing programs to verify flight proficiency as well. Factory pilot sounds like the proverbial "company" doctor to me. Whoa, what a pun!

[RPJ]

Originally Posted by MFT1Air

I personally am not comfortable with this "factory" pilot signoff. Additionally, 45-60 days of "riding" with someone? Quantify that in flight hours, please? Can I also believe places like SIMCOM and Flight Safety are providing programs to verify flight proficiency as well. Factory pilot sounds like the proverbial "company" doctor to me. Whoa, what a pun!

LOL, I like the way you worded that one. Who knows man all this could be a bunch of lip service by the VLJ companies anyways. We will see once those things become airborne, how many people will find themselves 6 feet under (hopefully none).

[nocturnalaviator]

Originally Posted by RPJ

The repeat of doctor/lawyer killer equipment can be dramatically reduced with very thorough initial and recurrent VLJ training.

Yeah key word... thorough everyone has their own definition of the word which is a scary thought. Like ya said, just have to see.

[Always Moving]

Let's just hope that the Government do not ground them after a streak of accidents like they did the Malibu. They investigate it and they were all pilot error the plane fly just fine!

They are cheap enough. My answer is yes they will be the next Dr. Killa

[WalterSobchak]

I believe the Cirrus is already taking this title from the V tail. I'm sure VLJ's will find their own niche at killing under qualified pilots also. Hopefully these companies have great lawyers.

[jynxyjoe]

i helped certify 2 of the vljs (before i left) and i still talk to the company i used to work for who is working each one of them. no i'm not gonna supply a link and i'm certainly not gonna tell you who i worked for or what i did for confidentiality reasons. if you don't want to listen thats fine. if anyone is seriously considering buying one or flying one as a pilot for an air taxi please get your affairs in order, and when it crashes on you (i fully expect a 50/50 share of equipment malfunctions as well as pilot errors) please steer away from the rest of us on the way down.

i was deeply disappointed with both aircraft i saw, and i'm pretty sure there will be a number of them balled up on fire over the next year.

i expect these to be worse than the cirrus 20/22 and i expect a giant mess of dead rich morons who fly on the weekends.

with that said, if you are a lawyer or grave digger or work for a charity (who these rich folks seem to leave most of their money to in the event of their death) you'll be applauding because you'll have lots of work.