8710 Question

Baronman · September 27th, 2003, 14:18

When filling out the hours section of an 8710, the FAA asks for totals of "SOLO" time.

Is Solo when a pilot is alone in the aircraft, without passengers/pets/etc?? Or do they consider SOLO anytime you're the only pilot in the plane?

I have almost no solo time!! Hundreds of hours of PIC with students and pax!!

E_Dawg · September 27th, 2003, 14:41

Edit--> ALONE in the plane <--Edit

I bet the only reason it's there is for students to prove they've met the solo time requirements.... but since everyone uses the 8710, we all have to suffer through counting solo time hour by hour. However you only have to fill out what's required for the aeronautical experience for whatever you're applying for.

Anyways if you use a computer logbook or the free one online at www.logshare.com it does it for you.

Baronman · September 27th, 2003, 14:48

Thanks! So I do have some solo time after all

E_Dawg · September 27th, 2003, 15:05

Wait I meant to say alone in the plane.... sorry!

man I'm gettin old

When you think about it, it kind of makes sense because of the very few requirements for 'solo' time instead of PIC time, such as the ones for student pilots and the cross country for commercial applicants. Still, it's a pain to total if you don't keep running totals already and / or don't use a computer logbook.

raysalmon · September 27th, 2003, 15:28

[ QUOTE ]
passengers/pets/etc??

[/ QUOTE ]

Quite frankly I don't think the FAA would mind if you logged solo time if you took your dog/cat/boa constrictor with you. :-)

So long as there's no human on board....which brings up another point....just make it sensible, and another point, it really doesn't matter. I don't even bother logging solo anymore. The only time the FAA is interested in solo time is pre-private.

Ray

Jason · September 27th, 2003, 16:04

Yeah you only fill out what's required for the test you're taking - I've left that section blank on all of the type rating checkrides I've taken since there isn't a specific amount of time required for type ratings.

As a follow up - I have an MEI ride coming up - does anybody know for sure if the flight time grid has to be filled out for instructor ratings - I'm dreding going thru my logbook to figure it all out.

Jason

giants_fan · September 27th, 2003, 16:48

Jason's right. All that is needed is the hours necessary for the rating sought.

bluelake · September 27th, 2003, 16:53

agreed. i am also told by some folks that if you lose your logbook that the hours listed on the 8710 can be used as a legal source for time. I dont know this for certain.

As we all know, the boxes of hours on the 8710 arent the same as in most of our logbooks. What I do is about each three or four pages of my logbook, I add up the hours that arent represented in my logbook (ie: night PIC) and write them in the margin. This helps me keep track so that near a checkride I am not digging too many pages pulling my hair out.

EatSleepFly · September 27th, 2003, 17:04

If you get a computer logbook like LogbookPro, you can actually have it print out a replica flight time section of the 8710 form. Its pretty cool, I just wish I had gotten it before I got all my ratings!

MidlifeFlyer · September 27th, 2003, 17:33

[ QUOTE ]
Edit--> ALONE in the plane <--Edit

I bet the only reason it's there is for students to prove they've met the solo time requirements....

[/ QUOTE ]There are also solo requirments for the commercial certificate.

And yes, you're right. It means alone (or at least the only person) in the airplane.

Baronman · September 27th, 2003, 17:43

Man...I got all exited that I had all that solo time....I guess not!! I hope they'll give me a new license.....hehe

E_Dawg · September 27th, 2003, 17:57

I was worried you'd go and total all your time up... only to come back here and find out it's wrong!

MidlifeFlyer · September 28th, 2003, 09:34

[ QUOTE ]
As a follow up - I have an MEI ride coming up - does anybody know for sure if the flight time grid has to be filled out for instructor ratings - I'm dreding going thru my logbook to figure it all out.

[/ QUOTE ]Maybe not since there aren't any specific hour requirements for the add-on (at least I don't think so).

But there are two good reasons to go through the process anyway, whether or not it's required.

1. A lot of DPEs expect to see it filled out.
2. It becomes an official record of your hours as of that date. Not a bad thing to have in case of a lost or destroyed logbook.

aloft · September 28th, 2003, 14:09

[ QUOTE ]
There are also solo requirments for the commercial certificate.

[/ QUOTE ]To wit, 14 CFR § 61.129(a)(4): [ QUOTE ]
4) 10 hours of solo flight in a single-engine airplane on the areas of operation listed in § 61.127(b)(1) of this part, which includes at least --

(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and

(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.

[/ QUOTE ]

say_speed · September 29th, 2003, 19:32

Solo: sole occupant of the aircraft.
There is though one exception, where you can log solo time AND an instructor is on board...
Who will find it??

JHines · September 29th, 2003, 19:45

When the student pilot is performing the duties of PIC in an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember. FAR 61.51(d).

say_speed · September 29th, 2003, 20:35

No,the student pilot will log the time as PIC. Cf: 61.51.e.4.i

Kingairer · September 29th, 2003, 20:53

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah you only fill out what's required for the test you're taking

[/ QUOTE ]

That all that is required, but it is recommended that you fill in all appropriate colums with your current times.

JHines · September 29th, 2003, 21:16

61.51(e)(4)(i) is permissive. Read together with 61.51(d), the implication is that both solo and PIC time may be logged under those conditions, despite the presence of the instructor.

61.51(d) seems quite clear that the "airship" situation is the only exception to the "sole occupant" rule for solo. If you are referring to some other exception, please point out where it's at in the regs, I'd be interested to know.

MidlifeFlyer · September 30th, 2003, 06:34

[ QUOTE ]
61.51(e)(4)(i) is permissive. Read together with 61.51(d), the implication is that both solo and PIC time may be logged under those conditions, despite the presence of the instructor

[/ QUOTE ]It's more than just an implication.

I'm be curious to see what Say Speed has in mind also.

say_speed · October 1st, 2003, 12:56

Well,
I just realized now that the regs have changed a bit, since last time I had to use them... I was initially refering to 61.129.b.4, but a while back the phrase "or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a multiengine airplane with an authorized instructor" was not present. The only way the student pilot could log those 10 hours as solo was, according to the local FSDO, to put a note in the logbook stating that the instructor was present for insurance purposes only. No insurance (at least that I was aware of) would let a pilot take a multi without a proper rating.
That'll teach me wanting to look smart!
But it seems clear to me that a student pilot performing the duties of pilot in command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember, will log the time as PIC, not solo. If I was in that situation, I would rather log PIC time than SOLO time. What am I missing?

JHines · October 1st, 2003, 17:21

Well, there's no reason that a properly rated pilot flying solo couldn't log both solo and PIC, right? - the categories aren't mutually exclusive. Of course, a lot of logbooks don't have separate columns for the two.

I agree that the the airship solo logging exception is odd. According to 61.109(g), there's not any solo flight experience required for an airship rating, so you wouldn't have to log any at all.

The only modern airships I've ever seen are the Goodyear blimp and other similar semi-rigid designs. Heck, are any of those even certified for single pilot operation?

MidlifeFlyer · October 2nd, 2003, 06:38

[ QUOTE ]
I was initially refering to 61.129.b.4, but a while back the phrase "or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a multiengine airplane with an authorized instructor" was not present.

[/ QUOTE ]One of those times that the Reg was changed to reflect reality. In this case the insurance reality you mention. Essentially formalizing the old FSDO practice you describe.
[ QUOTE ]
But it seems clear to me that a student pilot performing the duties of pilot in command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember, will log the time as PIC, not solo. If I was in that situation, I would rather log PIC time than SOLO time. What am I missing?

[/ QUOTE ]Nothing, except that you can log both so there's no "rather" choice to make.

MidlifeFlyer · October 2nd, 2003, 06:45

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that the the airship solo logging exception is odd. According to 61.109(g), there's not any solo flight experience required for an airship rating, so you wouldn't have to log any at all.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's not relevant now, but I think at one time the total solo requirement for, for example, a private ASEL certificate was did not require that all of the solo time be in an ASEL. Something like X hours solo, of which Y must be in a single engine airplane.

say_speed · October 3rd, 2003, 14:21

[ QUOTE ]
Well, there's no reason that a properly rated pilot flying solo couldn't log both solo and PIC, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

That is my point, a student seeking a ME rating is not properly rated, therefore could not fly solo on a ME, or log PIC time for that matter; but needed solo time as a pre-requisite for the practical test.
But I think we are talking about the same thing in a different way...

September 27th, 2003, 14:18	#1
Baronman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: NEWARK Posts: 1,049	8710 Question When filling out the hours section of an 8710, the FAA asks for totals of "SOLO" time. Is Solo when a pilot is alone in the aircraft, without passengers/pets/etc?? Or do they consider SOLO anytime you're the only pilot in the plane? I have almost no solo time!! Hundreds of hours of PIC with students and pax!!

September 27th, 2003, 14:41	#2
E_Dawg Moderator Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: chicago Posts: 4,171	Re: 8710 Question Edit--> ALONE in the plane <--Edit I bet the only reason it's there is for students to prove they've met the solo time requirements.... but since everyone uses the 8710, we all have to suffer through counting solo time hour by hour. However you only have to fill out what's required for the aeronautical experience for whatever you're applying for. Anyways if you use a computer logbook or the free one online at www.logshare.com it does it for you.

September 27th, 2003, 14:48	#3
Baronman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: NEWARK Posts: 1,049	Re: 8710 Question Thanks! So I do have some solo time after all

September 27th, 2003, 15:05	#4
E_Dawg Moderator Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: chicago Posts: 4,171	Re: 8710 Question Wait I meant to say alone in the plane.... sorry! man I'm gettin old When you think about it, it kind of makes sense because of the very few requirements for 'solo' time instead of PIC time, such as the ones for student pilots and the cross country for commercial applicants. Still, it's a pain to total if you don't keep running totals already and / or don't use a computer logbook.

September 27th, 2003, 15:28	#5
raysalmon Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: CO Posts: 260	Re: 8710 Question [ QUOTE ] passengers/pets/etc?? [/ QUOTE ] Quite frankly I don't think the FAA would mind if you logged solo time if you took your dog/cat/boa constrictor with you. :-) So long as there's no human on board....which brings up another point....just make it sensible, and another point, it really doesn't matter. I don't even bother logging solo anymore. The only time the FAA is interested in solo time is pre-private. Ray

September 27th, 2003, 16:04	#6
Jason Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 986	Re: 8710 Question Yeah you only fill out what's required for the test you're taking - I've left that section blank on all of the type rating checkrides I've taken since there isn't a specific amount of time required for type ratings. As a follow up - I have an MEI ride coming up - does anybody know for sure if the flight time grid has to be filled out for instructor ratings - I'm dreding going thru my logbook to figure it all out. Jason

September 27th, 2003, 16:48	#7
giants_fan Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 85	Re: 8710 Question Jason's right. All that is needed is the hours necessary for the rating sought.

September 27th, 2003, 16:53	#8
bluelake Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Redding, CA Posts: 619	Re: 8710 Question agreed. i am also told by some folks that if you lose your logbook that the hours listed on the 8710 can be used as a legal source for time. I dont know this for certain. As we all know, the boxes of hours on the 8710 arent the same as in most of our logbooks. What I do is about each three or four pages of my logbook, I add up the hours that arent represented in my logbook (ie: night PIC) and write them in the margin. This helps me keep track so that near a checkride I am not digging too many pages pulling my hair out.

September 27th, 2003, 17:04	#9
EatSleepFly Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: ?? Posts: 4,600	Re: 8710 Question If you get a computer logbook like LogbookPro, you can actually have it print out a replica flight time section of the 8710 form. Its pretty cool, I just wish I had gotten it before I got all my ratings!

September 27th, 2003, 17:33	#10
MidlifeFlyer Old Skool Join Date: May 2003 Location: Denver Colorado Posts: 2,978	Re: 8710 Question [ QUOTE ] Edit--> ALONE in the plane <--Edit I bet the only reason it's there is for students to prove they've met the solo time requirements.... [/ QUOTE ]There are also solo requirments for the commercial certificate. And yes, you're right. It means alone (or at least the only person) in the airplane.

September 27th, 2003, 17:43	#11
Baronman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: NEWARK Posts: 1,049	Re: 8710 Question Man...I got all exited that I had all that solo time....I guess not!! I hope they'll give me a new license.....hehe

September 27th, 2003, 17:57	#12
E_Dawg Moderator Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: chicago Posts: 4,171	Re: 8710 Question I was worried you'd go and total all your time up... only to come back here and find out it's wrong!

September 28th, 2003, 09:34	#13
MidlifeFlyer Old Skool Join Date: May 2003 Location: Denver Colorado Posts: 2,978	Re: 8710 Question [ QUOTE ] As a follow up - I have an MEI ride coming up - does anybody know for sure if the flight time grid has to be filled out for instructor ratings - I'm dreding going thru my logbook to figure it all out. [/ QUOTE ]Maybe not since there aren't any specific hour requirements for the add-on (at least I don't think so). But there are two good reasons to go through the process anyway, whether or not it's required. 1. A lot of DPEs expect to see it filled out. 2. It becomes an official record of your hours as of that date. Not a bad thing to have in case of a lost or destroyed logbook.

September 28th, 2003, 14:09	#14
aloft Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Inside your OODA loop Posts: 6,861	Re: 8710 Question [ QUOTE ] There are also solo requirments for the commercial certificate. [/ QUOTE ]To wit, 14 CFR § 61.129(a)(4): [ QUOTE ] 4) 10 hours of solo flight in a single-engine airplane on the areas of operation listed in § 61.127(b)(1) of this part, which includes at least -- (i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and (ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower. [/ QUOTE ]

September 29th, 2003, 19:32	#15
say_speed Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Cali Posts: 194	Re: 8710 Question Solo: sole occupant of the aircraft. There is though one exception, where you can log solo time AND an instructor is on board... Who will find it??

September 29th, 2003, 19:45	#16
JHines Junior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: SC Posts: 292	Re: 8710 Question When the student pilot is performing the duties of PIC in an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember. FAR 61.51(d).

September 29th, 2003, 20:35	#17
say_speed Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Cali Posts: 194	Re: 8710 Question No,the student pilot will log the time as PIC. Cf: 61.51.e.4.i

September 29th, 2003, 20:53	#18
Kingairer Old Skool Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Nomadic...World Wide Boobie Bungalow Bouncer Posts: 3,170	Re: 8710 Question [ QUOTE ] Yeah you only fill out what's required for the test you're taking [/ QUOTE ] That all that is required, but it is recommended that you fill in all appropriate colums with your current times.

September 29th, 2003, 21:16	#19
JHines Junior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: SC Posts: 292	Re: 8710 Question 61.51(e)(4)(i) is permissive. Read together with 61.51(d), the implication is that both solo and PIC time may be logged under those conditions, despite the presence of the instructor. 61.51(d) seems quite clear that the "airship" situation is the only exception to the "sole occupant" rule for solo. If you are referring to some other exception, please point out where it's at in the regs, I'd be interested to know.

September 30th, 2003, 06:34	#20
MidlifeFlyer Old Skool Join Date: May 2003 Location: Denver Colorado Posts: 2,978	Re: 8710 Question [ QUOTE ] 61.51(e)(4)(i) is permissive. Read together with 61.51(d), the implication is that both solo and PIC time may be logged under those conditions, despite the presence of the instructor [/ QUOTE ]It's more than just an implication. I'm be curious to see what Say Speed has in mind also.

October 1st, 2003, 12:56	#21
say_speed Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Cali Posts: 194	Re: 8710 Question Well, I just realized now that the regs have changed a bit, since last time I had to use them... I was initially refering to 61.129.b.4, but a while back the phrase "or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a multiengine airplane with an authorized instructor" was not present. The only way the student pilot could log those 10 hours as solo was, according to the local FSDO, to put a note in the logbook stating that the instructor was present for insurance purposes only. No insurance (at least that I was aware of) would let a pilot take a multi without a proper rating. That'll teach me wanting to look smart! But it seems clear to me that a student pilot performing the duties of pilot in command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember, will log the time as PIC, not solo. If I was in that situation, I would rather log PIC time than SOLO time. What am I missing?

October 1st, 2003, 17:21	#22
JHines Junior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: SC Posts: 292	Re: 8710 Question Well, there's no reason that a properly rated pilot flying solo couldn't log both solo and PIC, right? - the categories aren't mutually exclusive. Of course, a lot of logbooks don't have separate columns for the two. I agree that the the airship solo logging exception is odd. According to 61.109(g), there's not any solo flight experience required for an airship rating, so you wouldn't have to log any at all. The only modern airships I've ever seen are the Goodyear blimp and other similar semi-rigid designs. Heck, are any of those even certified for single pilot operation?

October 2nd, 2003, 06:38	#23
MidlifeFlyer Old Skool Join Date: May 2003 Location: Denver Colorado Posts: 2,978	Re: 8710 Question [ QUOTE ] I was initially refering to 61.129.b.4, but a while back the phrase "or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a multiengine airplane with an authorized instructor" was not present. [/ QUOTE ]One of those times that the Reg was changed to reflect reality. In this case the insurance reality you mention. Essentially formalizing the old FSDO practice you describe. [ QUOTE ] But it seems clear to me that a student pilot performing the duties of pilot in command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember, will log the time as PIC, not solo. If I was in that situation, I would rather log PIC time than SOLO time. What am I missing? [/ QUOTE ]Nothing, except that you can log both so there's no "rather" choice to make.

October 2nd, 2003, 06:45	#24
MidlifeFlyer Old Skool Join Date: May 2003 Location: Denver Colorado Posts: 2,978	Re: 8710 Question [ QUOTE ] I agree that the the airship solo logging exception is odd. According to 61.109(g), there's not any solo flight experience required for an airship rating, so you wouldn't have to log any at all. [/ QUOTE ] It's not relevant now, but I think at one time the total solo requirement for, for example, a private ASEL certificate was did not require that all of the solo time be in an ASEL. Something like X hours solo, of which Y must be in a single engine airplane.

October 3rd, 2003, 14:21	#25
say_speed Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Cali Posts: 194	Re: 8710 Question [ QUOTE ] Well, there's no reason that a properly rated pilot flying solo couldn't log both solo and PIC, right? [/ QUOTE ] That is my point, a student seeking a ME rating is not properly rated, therefore could not fly solo on a ME, or log PIC time for that matter; but needed solo time as a pre-requisite for the practical test. But I think we are talking about the same thing in a different way...

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