Seaplane Rating

[rossy1163]

If someone currently has a CFI ASL and then gets a seaplane rating does this automatically authorize them to give instruction in a seaplane?

[ElyJs]

I don't know anyone with a CFI ASL. ASE on the on the other hand... I don't have a seaplane rating but I can instruct in ASE so I can instruct in a single engine seaplane right now.

-Jason

[zmiller4]

Originally Posted by rossy1163

If someone currently has a CFI ASL and then gets a seaplane rating does this automatically authorize them to give instruction in a seaplane?

Just to clarify the acronyms that Jason used, an instructor certificate simply says "airplane single engine" (multi engine, instrument airplane, etc)--it does not specify land or sea.

So if you've got a commercial seaplane cert (and are current in the seaplane) and a current CFI cert, you're good to teach in the seaplane.

I've got a commercial seaplane certificate and a whopping 5.6 hrs of floatplane time...and I could instruct in it. It's a little nuts.

[ElyJs]

Actually even though I don't have a CSES I can still instruct in a seaplane. As long as my student was rated category/class and able to be PIC I could log PIC dual given.

-Jason

[zmiller4]

Originally Posted by ElyJs

Actually even though I don't have a CSES I can still instruct in a seaplane. As long as my student was rated category/class and able to be PIC I could log PIC dual given.

-Jason

Uhhh.....

You're saying you could instruct in something you're not certified to fly?

I think that may be pushing interpretation of the regs a little far.

[SkyCougar]

All of the above comments give me cause for concern. If you're a student and you want to learn how to fly seaplanes, then how do you know if your instructor knows his way around a seaplane? How can one make sure that they're getting a genuinely qualified instructor? Do they log their seaplane hours as such and then you ask to see their logbook?

[butt]

Originally Posted by zmiller4

Uhhh.....

You're saying you could instruct in something you're not certified to fly?

I think that may be pushing interpretation of the regs a little far.

You don't need to be certified to fly a plane in order to give instruction it it. All you need is to be certified to instruct in the plane. A CFI-A gives you the ability to act as a "authorized instructor" in an airplane. A seaplane is still a plane, so you can indeed instruct in it.

All of the above comments give me cause for concern. If you're a student and you want to learn how to fly seaplanes, then how do you know if your instructor knows his way around a seaplane? How can one make sure that they're getting a genuinely qualified instructor? Do they log their seaplane hours as such and then you ask to see their logbook?

Acting as PIC in an airplane and instructing in an airplane are two different things. A CFI-A with no seaplane rating can instruct in a seaplane, but can't act as PIC.

For example:

If a student has never touched a sea plane before, and a CFI hasn't touched one either, neither person can act as PIC. Therefore this situation is illegal.

If a student already has a seaplane rating, and the CFI has never touched a sea plane before, the "student" acts as PIC, and the instructor can give all the instruction he/she wants.

For instance, a guy owns his own seaplane and is A-SES wants to get a commercial, so he comes to me to teach him lazy-8s and 8's on pylons. All I would need to do this is a CFI-A.

How about this: a never-before-touched-a-seaplane student in the left seat, a C-SES pilot in the right seat, and a never-before-touched-a-seaplane CFI-A in the back. The CFI can legally log dual given, as long as he/she is actually giving instruction (there was a thread about this a while ago). But can this instruction be used as the basis for a certificate or rating? I'm sure it says somewhere "you can't endorse someone for something you don't have", but where? I don't see it anywhere in 61.195... All thought it does say,

(b) Aircraft ratings. A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold:
(1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating; and
(2) If appropriate, a type rating.

But I'm 99.9% sure "flight instruction" here means "primary instruction" as in with a never-before-touched-a-seaplane student. But I'm not really sure.

[SkyCougar]

Originally Posted by butt

You don't need to be certified to fly a plane in order to give instruction it it. All you need is to be certified to instruct in the plane. A CFI-A gives you the ability to act as a "authorized instructor" in an airplane. A seaplane is still a plane, so you can indeed instruct in it.



Acting as PIC in an airplane and instructing in an airplane are two different things. A CFI-A with no seaplane rating can instruct in a seaplane, but can't act as PIC.

For example:

If a student has never touched a sea plane before, and a CFI hasn't touched one either, neither person can act as PIC. Therefore this situation is illegal.

If a student already has a seaplane rating, and the CFI has never touched a sea plane before, the "student" acts as PIC, and the instructor can give all the instruction he/she wants.

For instance, a guy owns his own seaplane and is A-SES wants to get a commercial, so he comes to me to teach him lazy-8s and 8's on pylons. All I would need to do this is a CFI-A.

How about this: a never-before-touched-a-seaplane student in the left seat, a C-SES pilot in the right seat, and a never-before-touched-a-seaplane CFI-A in the back. The CFI can legally log dual given, as long as he/she is actually giving instruction (there was a thread about this a while ago). But can this instruction be used as the basis for a certificate or rating? I'm sure it says somewhere "you can't endorse someone for something you don't have", but where? I don't see it anywhere in 61.195... All thought it does say,


But I'm 99.9% sure "flight instruction" here means "primary instruction" as in with a never-before-touched-a-seaplane student. But I'm not really sure.

Thanks for the info. There is a seaplane place nearby in Sausalito and I am interested in learning how to fly those planes, only for my own fun. Should I ask to see the instructor's sea plane hours in his log book? Help me out here guys - what should I look for in my inquiry?

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by butt

But I'm 99.9% sure "flight instruction" here means "primary instruction" as in with a never-before-touched-a-seaplane student. But I'm not really sure.

And why are you sure about that?

You don't need to be certified to fly a plane in order to give instruction it it.

What is your evidence for that statement?

[butt]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

And why are you sure about that?

uh, disregard that "99.9%" part. I am, indeed, not sure.

What is your evidence for that statement?

If you don't have a high performance signoff, you can still give instruction in a Bonanza, given the "student" has one and is able to act as PIC. Correct? The CFI-A gives me authority to act as "authorized instructor" in any plane, as long as it's not multi-engine (more on this later)

Furthermore, you can also instruct in a seaplane without the seaplane class rating, as long as someone on board is seaplane rated and able to act as PIC.

The way I see it, theres a difference between "giving instruction for a rating the CFI doesn't hold", and "giving instruction in a plane the CFI can't act as PIC in". In other words, if it's an airplane, you can give instruction in it, period. Whether or not you can act as PIC in it is irrelevant.

I'm guessing the reason for this is because it can be argued that a tail wheel plane is only really a tail wheel plane when you're taxiing, landing or taking off. In the air, it flies just like any other plane. The same goes for sea planes, high performance planes, and any other kind of plane that requires extra certification/endorsements.

The exception is multi-engine airplanes, since a multi-engine airplane is always a multi-engine plane. Just about every single phase of flight is significantly different due to it having two engines. Therefore, the CFI needs to have further training to be able to instruct in a multi-engine environment.

If the FAA had determined having floats on the bottom of the plane made it significantly different to handle, they would have split it up with CFI-SA and CFI-LA ratings. But they didn't, and I can indeed instruct in a seaplane as long as it incidental, meaning not specifically for a seaplane endorsement.

[Doug Taylor]

ORLY?

[zmiller4]

Originally Posted by SkyCougar

All of the above comments give me cause for concern. If you're a student and you want to learn how to fly seaplanes, then how do you know if your instructor knows his way around a seaplane? How can one make sure that they're getting a genuinely qualified instructor? Do they log their seaplane hours as such and then you ask to see their logbook?

Originally Posted by SkyCougar

Thanks for the info. There is a seaplane place nearby in Sausalito and I am interested in learning how to fly those planes, only for my own fun. Should I ask to see the instructor's sea plane hours in his log book? Help me out here guys - what should I look for in my inquiry?

Skycougar,
I know of the place you're talking about, and I don't think you need to worry about their experience. They're a legit school, and with most legit seaplane schools insurance will make sure they have adequate floatplane time--there's no way someone could get insured to instruct without quite a bit of floatplane time. You can ask how many float hours the instructors there have if you'd like, but I wouldn't worry about it with an established school like that.

I don't know if you have any flying experience, but I'd strongly recommend against trying to start flying in a floatplane. It's a *lot* more expensive, and it's definately more challenging than flying a land plane. If you're just interested in flying around for fun and not necessarily earning a rating, I'd strongly recommend NorCal Aviation up near San Andreas. It's a smaller, easier-to-fly (and much cheaper!) airplane than the school in Sausalito, and the owner/instructor is a super-cool woman who's one of the best instructors I know. PM me if you have any questions about the whole process.

Originally Posted by butt

If a student already has a seaplane rating, and the CFI has never touched a sea plane before, the "student" acts as PIC, and the instructor can give all the instruction he/she wants.

Uhh.....OK. I can go out and teach as much as I want now...but I can't log it for the person because my CFI isn't current. I think if you sign someone's logbook for instruction in an airplane you're not certified and current to fly, you're pushing the regs waaay too far--because of this:

(b) Aircraft ratings. A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold:
(1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating; and
(2) If appropriate, a type rating.

In a document notorious for ambiguity and openness to interpretation, the above section is a beacon of clarity. You can't teach (and when I say teach, I mean sign off someone's logbook) in something you're not certified to fly.

I've got an MEI, but I'm not typed in the Citation. Are you saying that I could give a BFR to a guy who's typed in a citation in that airplane?

If the FAA had determined having floats on the bottom of the plane made it significantly different to handle, they would have split it up with CFI-SA and CFI-LA ratings. But they didn't, and I can indeed instruct in a seaplane

1) They do handle differently (you'd know that if you had a seaplane rating)
2) Good luck explaining to the feds why your student's floatplane is upside down at the bottom of a lake while your certificate doesn't say "sea" on it anywhere.

[SkyCougar]

Originally Posted by zmiller4

Skycougar,
I know of the place you're talking about, and I don't think you need to worry about their experience. They're a legit school, and with most legit seaplane schools insurance will make sure they have adequate floatplane time--there's no way someone could get insured to instruct without quite a bit of floatplane time. You can ask how many float hours the instructors there have if you'd like, but I wouldn't worry about it with an established school like that.

I don't know if you have any flying experience, but I'd strongly recommend against trying to start flying in a floatplane. It's a *lot* more expensive, and it's definately more challenging than flying a land plane. If you're just interested in flying around for fun and not necessarily earning a rating, I'd strongly recommend NorCal Aviation up near San Andreas. It's a smaller, easier-to-fly (and much cheaper!) airplane than the school in Sausalito, and the owner/instructor is a super-cool woman who's one of the best instructors I know. PM me if you have any questions about the whole process.

Thanks for all of the info Z! I have heard of that woman up at San Andreas! Does she teach flying "land" planes as well, or would I be better off staying closer to home and going up to somewhere like Sonoma Skypark? I really do want to learn how to fly a floatplane though, mainly so I can fly around and land on lakes and bays.

[ElyJs]

To teach in an airplane you must have exactly what the regs tell you, nothing more, this one seems pretty clear.

(b) Aircraft ratings. A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold:
(1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating; and
(2) If appropriate, a type rating.

Category and Class, Airplane Single Engine. Pretty clear.

If you wanted to teach in a Citation you would not be able to because not type rated . As Butt said, why couldn't I teach commercial stuff to a seaplane pilot who owned his own plane? BTW I was asked about this on a CFI ride. The examiner explained it the way Butt did.

-Jason

From 1.1:
Category:
(1) As used with respect to the certification, ratings, privileges,
and limitations of airmen, means a broad classification of aircraft.
Examples include: airplane; rotorcraft; glider; and lighter-than-air;
and
Class:
(1) As used with respect to the certification, ratings, privileges,
and limitations of airmen, means a classification of aircraft within a
category having similar operating characteristics. Examples include:
single engine; multiengine; land; water; gyroplane; helicopter; airship;
and free balloon; and

[ElyJs]

I am starting to second guess myself the longer I read the regs. Maybe you do need a CSES to instruct in a seaplane not just a CFI ASE. I may have been wrong...the examiner too.

-Jason

[zmiller4]

Originally Posted by ElyJs

Category and Class, Airplane Single Engine. Pretty clear.

Do you know anyoneone who holds a pilot certificate that says "commercial pilot--airplane single engine"? Or does it perhaps say "airplane single engine land"? If your cert says that you're certified to fly an airplane single engine (not specifying land or sea), I'd say you're good to go. But I'm 99.999% sure that yours specifies land, so there's no way you can teach in a seaplane.

Yes, I know that 1.1 says that multiengine and single engine are "classes" of aircraft, but it also says that "land" and "sea" are classes of aircraft. That tells me that you must have a commercial pilot certificate for the specific class--i.e. single engine sea--in order to teach in a seaplane.

If an examiner told you that you can teach in a seaplane with out CSES, they're full of crap. I had *two* examiners who regularly conduct checkrides in seaplanes tell me the opposite.

You're getting confused with the limitations placed on flight instructors. A flight instructor certificate does not specify land or sea, just the number of engines.

If you still disagree, we can call the FSDO tomorrow. We'll see how they'd respond to someone teaching in a seaplane without a CSES.

[zmiller4]

Originally Posted by SkyCougar

Thanks for all of the info Z! I have heard of that woman up at San Andreas! Does she teach flying "land" planes as well, or would I be better off staying closer to home and going up to somewhere like Sonoma Skypark? I really do want to learn how to fly a floatplane though, mainly so I can fly around and land on lakes and bays.

I'd find the closest, cheapest flight school with a little 152 and decent instructors and pick up a private certificate. NorCal doesn't do any land plane instruction that I know of, and it probably wouldn't be worth the drive up there (although she is an awesome instructor).

Build up a little time in a 152, then head up to the hills. The flying up there is absolutely unbelievable. We did things with the airplane that I never thought I'd get to do. Canyon flying, touch-n-go's down beautiful lakes, flying traffic patterns a couple hundred feet off the water...it was incredible. In the grand scheme of things, it's not too expensive either...I think it works out to less than $200/hr with all materials included.

[SkyCougar]

Originally Posted by zmiller4

I'd find the closest, cheapest flight school with a little 152 and decent instructors and pick up a private certificate. NorCal doesn't do any land plane instruction that I know of, and it probably wouldn't be worth the drive up there (although she is an awesome instructor).

Build up a little time in a 152, then head up to the hills. The flying up there is absolutely unbelievable. We did things with the airplane that I never thought I'd get to do. Canyon flying, touch-n-go's down beautiful lakes, flying traffic patterns a couple hundred feet off the water...it was incredible. In the grand scheme of things, it's not too expensive either...I think it works out to less than $200/hr with all materials included.

Thanks again for the advice Z! Maybe I'll PM Travismo or Aerospacepilot and ask them about the instruction at the local airports. I suppose it makes good sense to learn to fly both.

[zmiller4]

Originally Posted by SkyCougar

Thanks again for the advice Z! Maybe I'll PM Travismo or Aerospacepilot and ask them about the instruction at the local airports. I suppose it makes good sense to learn to fly both.

Absolutely...and it will be much cheaper overall to get the PP-ASEL and then the ASES added on. If you're proficient in a light Cessna, the ASEL shouldn't take longer than 8-10hrs.

Good luck with it! It's a ton of fun.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by butt

If you don't have a high performance signoff, you can still give instruction in a Bonanza, given the "student" has one and is able to act as PIC. Correct?

The regulations don't really address this, but the old FAQ's said "no". The author of the FAQ said this would be addressed in a future rule-making process. In the meantime, he interpreted "authorized instructor" to mean one that had the appropriate endorsements.

you can also instruct in a seaplane without the seaplane class rating, as long as someone on board is seaplane rated and able to act as PIC.

That is contrary to the regulation you already cited. You must have the appropriate class rating on your pilot certificate and instructor certificate. There is no "sea" class rating for instructors, but there is for the pilot certificate. Ergo, you must have it. The FAQ's agree.

Whether or not you can act as PIC in it is irrelevant.

The letter of the regulations says this is not true for category and class, and the FAQ's say it's not true for endorsements.

The exception is multi-engine airplanes,

The ME isn't an exception, merely an example of the existing rule that you must have the class rating on your instructor and pilot certificate.

I can indeed instruct in a seaplane as long as it incidental, meaning not specifically for a seaplane endorsement.

Explain why the FAA requires that the instructor have the appropriate class rating on the pilot certificate.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by zmiller4

Yes, I know that 1.1 says that multiengine and single engine are "classes" of aircraft, but it also says that "land" and "sea" are classes of aircraft. That tells me that you must have a commercial pilot certificate for the specific class--i.e. single engine sea--in order to teach in a seaplane.

etc.