VOR question

E_Dawg · September 19th, 2003, 22:50

Two questions:
-VOR/DMEs and VORTACs have a 'Ch ##' (like Ch 97) on the chart. What is this for?
My guess is that some military aircraft might use it as an easier way to tune in the DME information.

-When would a compass rose not be shown on a chart?
My guess is that it's not shown when no airways are associated with the VOR and having the compass rose would add to an already cluttered map.

Thanks!

Buzo · September 19th, 2003, 23:23

I don't know for sure, but I believe the channels are for UHF radios found in military aircraft. The VOR's without compass roses I believe are terminal class VOR's.

onthebeach · September 20th, 2003, 10:53

>>
-VOR/DMEs and VORTACs have a 'Ch ##' (like Ch 97) on the chart. What is this for?
My guess is that some military aircraft might use it as an easier way to tune in the DME information.
<<

The channel number is for TACAN-equipped aircraft. TACAN is military equipment, but it is possible to have a TACAN unit installed in your civilian aircraft also. There is no practical need for this, as VOR/DME equipment accomplishes the same things.

The TACAN unit is tuned to the channel number, and the readout is radial and distance information from the TACAN ground station.

When you see a VOR/DME frequency box with TACAN channel information also located therein, the correct name for the navaid is VORTAC, or colocated VOR/DME (for civilian users) and TACAN (for military users) station.

Civilian VOR/DME equipped aircraft can use TACAN-only stations (typically found on military air bases) in a limited way to give you distance-only information from the TACAN station. No radial information will be available. Simply look up the TACAN channel in the frequency pairing table found in the front section of the Airport/Facility Directory and tune your nav receiver to the VHF frequency associated with the TACAN channel. Note that there may be 2 frequencies associated with a numbered TACAN channel, depending upon whether the channel is in the "X" or "Y" band, but one of them will give you distance info (provided, of course, that the TACAN ground station concerned is operational).

MikeD · September 20th, 2003, 14:03

[ QUOTE ]

-When would a compass rose not be shown on a chart?
My guess is that it's not shown when no airways are associated with the VOR and having the compass rose would add to an already cluttered map.

Thanks!

[/ QUOTE ]

The TACAN info is correct.

Your own answer to your question #2 is also correct. A compass rose is not required to surround a VOR/VORTAC if no airways are serviced by that navaid. Look at the PHX sectionalif you have a chance. You'll notice that PXR (Phoenix) VORTAC has a compass rose, while IWA (Willie) VORTAC doesn't.

SkyGirl · September 21st, 2003, 08:51

To reiterate what was already said -

I got the compass rose question during my private oral. I answered that I have only seen two omissions and both were terminal VORs. The examiner seemed happy with that response.

Is there actually a rule? Or are we just making observations?

MikeD · September 21st, 2003, 16:26

[ QUOTE ]
To reiterate what was already said -

I got the compass rose question during my private oral. I answered that I have only seen two omissions and both were terminal VORs. The examiner seemed happy with that response.

Is there actually a rule? Or are we just making observations?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's in the FAA regs concerning National Arispace makeup.

bluelake · September 21st, 2003, 18:40

i am trying to see this for myself, except for I dont know where Willie is??????

On the Klamath Falls Sectional, VOR RDD is shown and it HAS the compass rose, but there are no airways associated with this VOR... just approaches.

bluelake · September 21st, 2003, 18:41

ok, I found Willie.. near Williams... DUH. but the rest of my question is unanswered

MikeD · September 21st, 2003, 18:55

[ QUOTE ]
ok, I found Willie.. near Williams... DUH. but the rest of my question is unanswered

[/ QUOTE ]

What's the rest of your question? (am not seeing any other posts from you other than the previous 2 in this thread)

bluelake · September 21st, 2003, 20:03

sorry i wasnt clear as coulda been...

the earlier comment suggested that if a VOR was not associated with an airway, and a terminal VOR was given as an example, then it would not have a compass rose. That on its own seemed reasonable, except for I found a contradictory example here in my home town. the RDD VOR is not associated with an airway, yet on the sectional map it has a compass rose.

At this writing, I am not exactly sure if RDD is a terminal VOR or not. I DO know that it is not used to define airways and it DOES have a compass rose...

DeanR

SkyGirl · September 21st, 2003, 20:10

You can look in the A/FD to find out the type of VOR. I hope this helps.

bluelake · September 21st, 2003, 20:11

well, I know THAT

I am here upstairs in front of the Dell PC and the AFD is downstairs... ok.. here I go... be back in a minute

SkyGirl · September 21st, 2003, 20:26

And I thought I was lazy...I'd probably search through all available online aviation info. sources for an hour to avoid the half minute run downstairs.

bluelake · September 21st, 2003, 20:28

well...

I just posted a reply that for some reason hasnt appeared (PC ineptitude could be a factor), so here goes the reply in boil-down form:

1) The Redding VOR on the Klamath Falls VFR Sectional is a TERMINAL VOR, as per the AF/D.

2) The Redding VOR is not associated with ANY airways.

3) The Redding VOR is depicted on the K-Falls VFR Chart with a compass rose.

So, the essence of my question is more or less the subject of this post, and that is when does the compass rose get printed and when does it not???

DeanR

MikeD · September 21st, 2003, 20:42

[ QUOTE ]
well...

I just posted a reply that for some reason hasnt appeared (PC ineptitude could be a factor), so here goes the reply in boil-down form:

1) The Redding VOR on the Klamath Falls VFR Sectional is a TERMINAL VOR, as per the AF/D.

2) The Redding VOR is not associated with ANY airways.

3) The Redding VOR is depicted on the K-Falls VFR Chart with a compass rose.

So, the essence of my question is more or less the subject of this post, and that is when does the compass rose get printed and when does it not???

DeanR

[/ QUOTE ]

As I understand it with your example, a compas rose isn't required on a VOR/VORTAC that doesn't have airways running to/from it. That doesn't mean a compass rose can't or won't be there, though.

bluelake · September 21st, 2003, 20:51

Ok Mike, now ya got me really interested

(and this is coming from a guy whose LAST career was with digital mapping and cartography).

So, what IS the criteria.. WHHHHHEEENNN does a VOR get the Rose treatment and when DOESNT it.

MikeD · September 21st, 2003, 20:55

[ QUOTE ]
Ok Mike, now ya got me really interested

(and this is coming from a guy whose LAST career was with digital mapping and cartography).

So, what IS the criteria.. WHHHHHEEENNN does a VOR get the Rose treatment and when DOESNT it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm researching that too. It's in the FAA pubs on National Airspace System, and I'd seen it years back, but I'm trying to find the source now.

E_Dawg · September 22nd, 2003, 00:27

Maybe some guy just looks at it and decides wether or not to put it there based on surrounding clutter. That's what I would do anyway...

...just a thought!

Kingairer · September 29th, 2003, 19:11

What kind of chart are we talking about? IFR VFR? On a Jepp IFR low alt chart if the VOR is not associated with an airway there will not be a box around the info. (LIke MKL 109.0etc.

Also, Clutter is the reason some are removed on Jepp IFR charts.

sorrygottarunway · October 9th, 2003, 13:01

I don't think clutter has much to do with it... all of the VORs in the New York area have roses- and unfortunately with all the clutter, it is very difficult to make out the radials.

pkloop · October 11th, 2003, 20:31

I think it is a clutter issue and depending on its position from another to make positioning yourself easier if ya get lost via the old track to froms on your chart and boom there ya are

September 19th, 2003, 22:50	#1
E_Dawg Moderator Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: chicago Posts: 4,234	VOR question Two questions: -VOR/DMEs and VORTACs have a 'Ch ##' (like Ch 97) on the chart. What is this for? My guess is that some military aircraft might use it as an easier way to tune in the DME information. -When would a compass rose not be shown on a chart? My guess is that it's not shown when no airways are associated with the VOR and having the compass rose would add to an already cluttered map. Thanks!

September 20th, 2003, 10:53	#3
onthebeach Newbie Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 22	Re: VOR question >> -VOR/DMEs and VORTACs have a 'Ch ##' (like Ch 97) on the chart. What is this for? My guess is that some military aircraft might use it as an easier way to tune in the DME information. << The channel number is for TACAN-equipped aircraft. TACAN is military equipment, but it is possible to have a TACAN unit installed in your civilian aircraft also. There is no practical need for this, as VOR/DME equipment accomplishes the same things. The TACAN unit is tuned to the channel number, and the readout is radial and distance information from the TACAN ground station. When you see a VOR/DME frequency box with TACAN channel information also located therein, the correct name for the navaid is VORTAC, or colocated VOR/DME (for civilian users) and TACAN (for military users) station. Civilian VOR/DME equipped aircraft can use TACAN-only stations (typically found on military air bases) in a limited way to give you distance-only information from the TACAN station. No radial information will be available. Simply look up the TACAN channel in the frequency pairing table found in the front section of the Airport/Facility Directory and tune your nav receiver to the VHF frequency associated with the TACAN channel. Note that there may be 2 frequencies associated with a numbered TACAN channel, depending upon whether the channel is in the "X" or "Y" band, but one of them will give you distance info (provided, of course, that the TACAN ground station concerned is operational).

September 20th, 2003, 14:03	#4
MikeD Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pinal Airpark Posts: 6,897	Re: VOR question [ QUOTE ] -When would a compass rose not be shown on a chart? My guess is that it's not shown when no airways are associated with the VOR and having the compass rose would add to an already cluttered map. Thanks! [/ QUOTE ] The TACAN info is correct. Your own answer to your question #2 is also correct. A compass rose is not required to surround a VOR/VORTAC if no airways are serviced by that navaid. Look at the PHX sectionalif you have a chance. You'll notice that PXR (Phoenix) VORTAC has a compass rose, while IWA (Willie) VORTAC doesn't.

September 21st, 2003, 08:51	#5
SkyGirl Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 129	Re: VOR question To reiterate what was already said - I got the compass rose question during my private oral. I answered that I have only seen two omissions and both were terminal VORs. The examiner seemed happy with that response. Is there actually a rule? Or are we just making observations?

September 21st, 2003, 16:26	#6
MikeD Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pinal Airpark Posts: 6,897	Re: VOR question [ QUOTE ] To reiterate what was already said - I got the compass rose question during my private oral. I answered that I have only seen two omissions and both were terminal VORs. The examiner seemed happy with that response. Is there actually a rule? Or are we just making observations? [/ QUOTE ] It's in the FAA regs concerning National Arispace makeup.

September 19th, 2003, 23:23	#2
Buzo Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Rockford, IL Posts: 259	Re: VOR question I don't know for sure, but I believe the channels are for UHF radios found in military aircraft. The VOR's without compass roses I believe are terminal class VOR's.

September 21st, 2003, 18:40	#7
bluelake Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Redding, CA Posts: 619	Re: VOR question i am trying to see this for myself, except for I dont know where Willie is?????? On the Klamath Falls Sectional, VOR RDD is shown and it HAS the compass rose, but there are no airways associated with this VOR... just approaches.

September 21st, 2003, 18:41	#8
bluelake Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Redding, CA Posts: 619	Re: VOR question ok, I found Willie.. near Williams... DUH. but the rest of my question is unanswered

September 21st, 2003, 18:55	#9
MikeD Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pinal Airpark Posts: 6,897	Re: VOR question [ QUOTE ] ok, I found Willie.. near Williams... DUH. but the rest of my question is unanswered [/ QUOTE ] What's the rest of your question? (am not seeing any other posts from you other than the previous 2 in this thread)

September 21st, 2003, 20:03	#10
bluelake Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Redding, CA Posts: 619	Re: VOR question sorry i wasnt clear as coulda been... the earlier comment suggested that if a VOR was not associated with an airway, and a terminal VOR was given as an example, then it would not have a compass rose. That on its own seemed reasonable, except for I found a contradictory example here in my home town. the RDD VOR is not associated with an airway, yet on the sectional map it has a compass rose. At this writing, I am not exactly sure if RDD is a terminal VOR or not. I DO know that it is not used to define airways and it DOES have a compass rose... DeanR

September 21st, 2003, 20:10	#11
SkyGirl Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 129	Re: VOR question You can look in the A/FD to find out the type of VOR. I hope this helps.

September 21st, 2003, 20:11	#12
bluelake Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Redding, CA Posts: 619	Re: VOR question well, I know THAT I am here upstairs in front of the Dell PC and the AFD is downstairs... ok.. here I go... be back in a minute

September 21st, 2003, 20:26	#13
SkyGirl Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 129	Re: VOR question And I thought I was lazy...I'd probably search through all available online aviation info. sources for an hour to avoid the half minute run downstairs.

September 21st, 2003, 20:28	#14
bluelake Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Redding, CA Posts: 619	Re: VOR question well... I just posted a reply that for some reason hasnt appeared (PC ineptitude could be a factor), so here goes the reply in boil-down form: 1) The Redding VOR on the Klamath Falls VFR Sectional is a TERMINAL VOR, as per the AF/D. 2) The Redding VOR is not associated with ANY airways. 3) The Redding VOR is depicted on the K-Falls VFR Chart with a compass rose. So, the essence of my question is more or less the subject of this post, and that is when does the compass rose get printed and when does it not??? DeanR

September 21st, 2003, 20:42	#15
MikeD Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pinal Airpark Posts: 6,897	Re: VOR question [ QUOTE ] well... I just posted a reply that for some reason hasnt appeared (PC ineptitude could be a factor), so here goes the reply in boil-down form: 1) The Redding VOR on the Klamath Falls VFR Sectional is a TERMINAL VOR, as per the AF/D. 2) The Redding VOR is not associated with ANY airways. 3) The Redding VOR is depicted on the K-Falls VFR Chart with a compass rose. So, the essence of my question is more or less the subject of this post, and that is when does the compass rose get printed and when does it not??? DeanR [/ QUOTE ] As I understand it with your example, a compas rose isn't required on a VOR/VORTAC that doesn't have airways running to/from it. That doesn't mean a compass rose can't or won't be there, though.

September 21st, 2003, 20:51	#16
bluelake Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Redding, CA Posts: 619	Re: VOR question Ok Mike, now ya got me really interested (and this is coming from a guy whose LAST career was with digital mapping and cartography). So, what IS the criteria.. WHHHHHEEENNN does a VOR get the Rose treatment and when DOESNT it.

September 21st, 2003, 20:55	#17
MikeD Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pinal Airpark Posts: 6,897	Re: VOR question [ QUOTE ] Ok Mike, now ya got me really interested (and this is coming from a guy whose LAST career was with digital mapping and cartography). So, what IS the criteria.. WHHHHHEEENNN does a VOR get the Rose treatment and when DOESNT it. [/ QUOTE ] I'm researching that too. It's in the FAA pubs on National Airspace System, and I'd seen it years back, but I'm trying to find the source now.

September 22nd, 2003, 00:27	#18
E_Dawg Moderator Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: chicago Posts: 4,234	Re: VOR question Maybe some guy just looks at it and decides wether or not to put it there based on surrounding clutter. That's what I would do anyway... ...just a thought!

September 29th, 2003, 19:11	#19
Kingairer Old Skool Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Nomadic...World Wide Boobie Bungalow Bouncer Posts: 3,190	Re: VOR question What kind of chart are we talking about? IFR VFR? On a Jepp IFR low alt chart if the VOR is not associated with an airway there will not be a box around the info. (LIke MKL 109.0etc. Also, Clutter is the reason some are removed on Jepp IFR charts.

October 9th, 2003, 13:01	#20
sorrygottarunway Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: DXR, Connecticut Posts: 1,177	Re: VOR question I don't think clutter has much to do with it... all of the VORs in the New York area have roses- and unfortunately with all the clutter, it is very difficult to make out the radials.

October 11th, 2003, 20:31	#21
pkloop Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 284	Re: VOR question I think it is a clutter issue and depending on its position from another to make positioning yourself easier if ya get lost via the old track to froms on your chart and boom there ya are

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