logging question

[beechpilot84]

I work at an FBO where the owners’ husband takes the pictures for the photo flights we do. He is a private pilot and flies the plane until its time to shoot the pictures, then flies back. He logs all the time and has acquired the majority of his time by doing this. Since I’m not giving him dual and he isn’t a commercial pilot, can he really log this time while doing a commercial operation?

[Derek_S]

If he is logging it I would say it's not legal. Why are you there with him? Because you are a commercial pilot and can get paid to log the flight in your log book. Can he legally go up by himself and get paid for the flight? No, because he isn't a commercial pilot.

[SteveC]

If you think about the typical "logging" versus "acting" questions, might you consider posing the question again with different wording?


[/obscure mode ]

[Chris_Ford]

Originally Posted by Derek_S

If he is logging it I would say it's not legal. Why are you there with him? Because you are a commercial pilot and can get paid to log the flight in your log book. Can he legally go up by himself and get paid for the flight? No, because he isn't a commercial pilot.

If he's a private pilot and the plane is part of his business, he can do it, can he not?

[MDPilot]

From AOPA

“As a general rule, a private pilot may not carry paying passengers and may not be compensated for piloting an aircraft. However, under 14 CFR Part 61 Section 61.113(b), a private pilot may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft in connection with any business or employment if the flight is only incidental to that business or employment and the aircraft does not carry passengers or property for compensation or hire.

AOPA received a letter of interpretation from the FAA Office of Chief Counsel that further clarified this regulation. The FAA stated that acting as pilot in command of an aircraft while taking aerial photographs for the purpose of selling them is a commercial endeavor and is not merely incidental to the photography business. Therefore, the PIC must hold a commercial pilot certificate.” Source: AOPA ePilot</B>

[beechpilot84]

Yes it is part of the buisness but it's not incidental. I mean we go up to take the pictures and he always takes a commercial pilot with him. I know the acting vs. controlling but doesnt that fall under the same cateogory as two private pilots flying together, they both can't log the time with one acting and one controlling.


P.S. I've brought this up before to the guy but he doesnt seem to care. I don't really care either but if he ever tries to get a different certificate he might have some trouble.

[Sidious]

Originally Posted by MDPilot

FAA stated that acting as pilot in command of an aircraft while taking aerial photographs for the purpose of selling them is a commercial endeavor and is not merely incidental to the photography business. Therefore, the PIC must hold a commercial pilot certificate.” Source: AOPA ePilot</B>

That is exactly how I would interpret it.

The act of taking aeriel pictures IS the job. Now if he was just flying to a photo shoot, that would be different

[Schuin]

Originally Posted by Chris_Ford

If he's a private pilot and the plane is part of his business, he can do it, can he not?

I dont think he can. 61.113 say that you may be compensated as long as you don't carry passengers or PROPERTY for hire, in connection with your business. So i think that the camera would be considerd the property, since he would be compensated for the pictures. I think that even logging the flight time could be considered compensation. Kind of a gray area though.

[SteveC]

My point was that there is absolutely nothing illegal about logging the time. I'll let the rest of you work out the legality of acting as PIC.

[JAM]

Here's a good question...are YOU logging the time? If so, how? PIC, SIC, what? If so, you may be the one questionably logging time.

[MidlifeFlyer]

I really don't think I understand the question. Is he:

1. logging only the time he is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft he is rated for?
2. logging the time he is not the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft he is rated for?

In terms of logging PIC in your scenario, that's the only relevant question I can think of. I'm not sure what the nature of the operation as commercial or not has to do with the logging question. If, for example, a private pilot AMEL manipulates the controls of a multi (that doesn't require a type rating) during a Part 135 passenger flight, the flight may be contrary to Part 135, but the logging as PIC is just fine. True, it's not a particularly smart idea to log evidence of a reg violation, but that doesn't change the logging analysis.

BTW, on the aerial photography question itself, note the following from a 1995 FAA Legal opinion regarding private pilots and photography:

==============================
To the extent that your operation would be in furtherance of your own business of aerial photography or survey, and you are not carrying persons or property for compensation or hire, then you may do so holding a private pilot certificate. However, to the extent that your operation would involve operating your aircraft as an aerial platform for other photographers, etc., for compensation or hire, you would need to be the holder of at least a commercial pilot certificate in order to act as the pilot.
==============================

For the full text of the opinion:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...1995/White.rtf

JAM? Good question.

[nosehair]

Originally Posted by beechpilot84

He is a private pilot and flies the plane until its time to shoot the pictures, then flies back. He logs all the time and has acquired the majority of his time by doing this.

He can log all the time he actually flies (is sole manipulator of the controls) by authority of 61.51(e)(1) "A private pilot may log pilot in command time only for that flight time during which that person-
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which that pilot is rated." Period.

Doesn't say he is ACTING as PIC. He is not. The commercial pilot is. Of course, the commercial pilot cannot log the time because he is not manipulating the controls. He isn't instructing, and isn't required to be there as PIC in accordance with 121/135 rules or aircraft equipment, so only one person can log the time.

But note the simplicity of the regulation. Standing alone, the person logging as sole manipulator does not have to be current, have a medical, a BFR, special endorsements, nothing. But he can still log PIC by just being sole manipulator. The ACTING PIC, the person who cannot log any of this time, must meet all those currency requirements.

[beechpilot84]

Thanks for your input. For me I think it comes down to the fact that the flights are not incidental. If that is true then a commercial pilot would be required for the operation. Meaning even though he manipulates the controls I would still be able to log the time and he couldn't log it as PIC. Think about it this way, if we had an accident who would the FAA come after? The priviate pilot or me....I'm guessing me

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by beechpilot84

Thanks for your input. For me I think it comes down to the fact that the flights are not incidental. If that is true then a commercial pilot would be required for the operation. Meaning even though he manipulates the controls I would still be able to log the time and he couldn't log it as PIC. Think about it this way, if we had an accident who would the FAA come after? The priviate pilot or me....I'm guessing me

But he can legally log it as PIC. Whether or not he can legally ACT as PIC is another story. See numerous posts above...

Your comment about who the FAA will pursue is related to who can ACT as PIC by the regs. Who can legally be the Pilot In Command is often not the same as who can legally log PIC time. Different rules for each and, as MidlifeFlyer often says, it is unfortunate that the FAA uses the same term for two different concepts.

[nosehair]

Originally Posted by beechpilot84

Thanks for your input. For me I think it comes down to the fact that the flights are not incidental. If that is true then a commercial pilot would be required for the operation. Meaning even though he manipulates the controls I would still be able to log the time and he couldn't log it as PIC. Think about it this way, if we had an accident who would the FAA come after? The priviate pilot or me....I'm guessing me

He is paying you to take him on a photo flight - that requires you to have a Commercial. You are the PIC. That makes the FAA look to you for any thing that happens. You may allow this person to manipulate the controls, and he can log that time under 61.51, but he is assuming absolutely no responsibility for the flight. That still rests with you. You have the authority to let him or not let him. That is up to you. There are no regulations against allowing pax to manipulate controls on part 91 flights.

You are still tying acting PIC to logging PIC. You don't have to be PIC to log it as PIC.

And you can be the PIC and not be manipulating the controls, so you can't log time just because you are in the position of responsibility of the flight under part 91.

135/121 flights which require a pilot and copilot, the PIC gets to log all the time and the copilot only logs sole manipulater time on the stick, but that is not what you are doing. You cannot log the time that you are allowing your passenger to fly the airplane.