logging flight time questions ?

[kansaspilot]

When flying as a safety pilot, I was told that I can log flight time. Is this true, and if so what time can I log dual or SIC?

[EatSleepFly]

Neither...log it as PIC. But don't do too much of it...its a crap way to build time in most companies eyes.

[kansaspilot]

It's not that I am trying to build time the cheap way. How can you log it as PIC when you are a safety pilot. Basicly it seems your'e there for traffic avoidence etc while the left seat is under the hood. Can you elaborate for me.

[TrcB777]

You and the pilot under the hood can both log the time as PIC. Collision avoidance is quite important and its all up to the safety pilot(pic)....Remember there is the 1st pic...sole manipulator of the controls, the pilot under the hood, or the student pilot when dual received with the CFI. Then there is PIC...Pilot who is final athority of the flight....safety pilot, CFI.

[pilot602]

Safety pilot time can be logged (or not) three ways.

1) As PIC. This is because the FARs require that an appropriately rated and current pilot be on board when the pilot flying is under the hood. However, in order to log the time as PIC both pilots must agree, before the flight (or at from some point forward), that the safety pilot will be the acting PIC. This then puts all responisbility of the flight (and the consequences of any violations) on the safety pilot. The pilot under the hood can then log PIC time because he or she is the sole manipulator of the controls.

2) As SIC. The same regulation that requires the safety pilot allows he or she to log the time as SIC. In the scenario the safety pilot has refused to act as PIC and thus can log the time as SIC. When the safety pilot rule was written it was envisioned that it would be logged as SIC.

3) Not log the time at all. However the pilot flying must still enter the name of the safety pilot in his or her logbook.

There are countless threads on this subject on this board alone - do a quick search. Also do a search on your local FSDO web site and you'll find plenty of FAA "opinions" on the matter.

[SierraPilot]

Excerpt from Las Vegas FSDO:

http://www.awp.faa.gov/new/fsdo/las_vegas/art_pilot.htm

Normally, a safety pilot, required by regulations, who scans for traffic for a pilot flying under simulated instrument conditions is not pilot-in-command and thus logs second-in-command. However, if the two pilots agree that the safety pilot is designated pilot-in-command, the safety pilot/pilot-in-command may log PIC since he is the pilot responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft. The pilot flying is "sole manipulator of the controls for which the pilot is rated"" and may also log PIC. Therefore, two private pilots may log PIC under these conditions. However, the safety pilot/pilot-in-command must realize that anything that occurs during the flight is his responsibility. Airspace violations, non-compliance with ATC instructions, near mid air collision, and runway incursions on the ground are all now charged to the safety pilot. A recent article in a monthly aviation publications discussed a flight where there was a violation and the two pilots disagreed who was pilot-in-command.

However, two pilots may not simultaneously log PIC when one pilot is sole manipulator of the controls and the other is acting as pilot-in-command if the regulations governing the flight do not require more than one pilot.

"An airline transport pilot may log as PIC time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport certificate." [61.51 (e)(2)] Previous regulations allowed a situation where three pilot (one an ATP) could log PIC simultaneously when conducting an operation which did not require an airline transport pilot. This is no longer allowed under the August 1997 revision.

A flight instructor may log PIC "while acting as a authorized instructor". No change to previous regulations.

A student pilot can now log PIC. That’s new, and since there is no restriction, your logbook can be updated so that all student solo time prior to August 4, 1997 may be logged as PIC. When an instructor is aboard, since the student is not rated in the aircraft, flight instruction is still logged as dual not PIC.

Then there are some unusual situations which occur. A private pilot flying with his friend (a CFI or ATP) aboard as a passenger. What is the status of the CFI or ATP who is obviously a more senior pilot with more experience than the private pilot? The regulations don’t address this situation, but the courts may find that the more senior pilot has some or all the responsibility for the operation or safety of the flight.

In summary, the person who is pilot-in-command may log PIC, others may also log PIC depending in the circumstances

[MidlifeFlyer]

[ QUOTE ]
Safety pilot time can be logged (or not) three ways.


[/ QUOTE ]Absolutely correct.

But keep EatSleepFly's caution in mind. No on is going to be impressed with SIC time in a Cessna 152. I doubt they'd be awfully impressed with PIC safety pilot time in a 152 either, but there should be no way of telling that from the logbook.

This caution is not simply for aviation. In =any= career, "quantity" may meet the requirements, but "quality" gets the job.

[MidlifeFlyer]

[ QUOTE ]
In summary, the person who is pilot-in-command may log PIC, others may also log PIC depending in the circumstances

[/ QUOTE ]That's not necessarily true. =Acting= as PIC does not automatically give the right to =log= PIC.

With specific exceptions for ATPs and CFIs, 61.51(e) set out the universe for logging PIC:

A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time under only two circumstances:
The pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated;
The pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or

In addition a private or commercial pilot may log PIC for acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted. (That's the safety pilot situation)

Note that none of the items is "acting as PIC on any flight."

The favorite example is two private pilots in a high performance airplane. The pilot =with= the endorsement it not flying. The one =without= the endorsement is.

The pilot with the endorsement obviously =is= PIC; she's the only one who can be. But she doesn't fit into any of the 61.51(e) categories (unless you can show me a regulation that says that flying a high performance airplane is an operation that requires more than one pilot).

On the other hand, the pilot without the endorsement still has "airplane single engine land" on the back of his certificate and gets to log PIC as the sole manipulator of the controls.

[SierraPilot]

[ QUOTE ]
On the other hand, the pilot without the endorsement still has "airplane single engine land" on the back of his certificate and gets to log PIC as the sole manipulator of the controls.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I would agree with most of what you say I still have a problem with it.. as FAR 61.51 states:

A private or commercial pilot may log PIC time if that person is "the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated" [61.51 (e)(1)(i)]

While he may be the sole manipulator of the controls he is not rated for that aircraft and therefore cannot log PIC. Just my .2 cents worth..

Ryan

[sbav8r]

[ QUOTE ]
While he may be the sole manipulator of the controls he is not rated for that aircraft and therefore cannot log PIC.

[/ QUOTE ]

High performance is an endorsment not a rating. The pilot is rated in the aircraft, ASEL.

[EatSleepFly]

[ QUOTE ]
However, two pilots may not simultaneously log PIC when one pilot is sole manipulator of the controls and the other is acting as pilot-in-command if the regulations governing the flight do not require more than one pilot.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes they may. Keep in mind, 61.51 only regulates what you can log as PIC to use toward a certificate/rating, or currency.

Using the above high performance aircraft as an example:

Joe is a private pilot with no HP endorsement, and he is going flying with friend Sally who is a private pilot WITH an HP endorsement, in her C-182. Once they get up in the air, Sally lets Joe take over the controls for a while.

Can Joe log this as PIC? Can Sally?

Yes, and Yes. Sally can log it, because, by definition (FAR 1.1), "PIC means the person who has the final authority and responsibilityfor the operation and safety of the flight (Sally); has been designated as PIC before or during the flight; and holds the appropriate category, class, and type ratings for the conduct of the flight."

Joe can log it, because he is sole manipulator of the controls and rated in Category/Class (A-SEL). Like sbav8r said, an endorsement is not a rating.

There's an FAA Chief Council Opinion on this very question, and for those of you who have the book FAR's Explained, by Kent Jackson, it is on page 61-61 in there.

[pilot602]

Don't 'ya just love the FARs.







/sarcasmff

[MidlifeFlyer]

[ QUOTE ]
While I would agree with most of what you say I still have a problem with it.. as FAR 61.51 states:

A private or commercial pilot may log PIC time if that person is "the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated" [61.51 (e)(1)(i)]

While he may be the sole manipulator of the controls he is not rated for that aircraft and therefore cannot log PIC. Just my .2 cents worth..

[/ QUOTE ]Yes he is. That's the point. an "endorsement" is not a "rating". "Ratings" appear on pilot certificates; "endorsements" do not.

Old stuff. Settled ages ago. Still confuses people.

[MidlifeFlyer]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes they may. Keep in mind, 61.51 only regulates what you can log as PIC to use toward a certificate/rating, or currency.

[/ QUOTE ]I've always been curious about this. I understand that some aviation companies are interested in "acting" PIC time, not necessarily logged PIC time. That would at least furnish a reason for recording it (if not, why bother? It would be like logging the drive to the airport) But would you keep it in a separate column?