FO's Authority??

JSS · January 3rd, 2007, 01:14

When in an airline interview, and they ask, "your captain descends below mins...wwyd?" etc, etc, etc... what are they looking for? My question is basically, what are they looking for there? I have no 121 experience, and obviously, using common sense, know that if the captain is doing something that is dangerous, you cannot just sit there and let it happen. However, is there a "right" answer, in regard to when exactly you would (as an FO) take the controls?? Any thoughts just in general as to when you are permitted to question the PIC's decision making (ie: going through a thunderstorm, icing, ect)? If he's breaking a FAR then I know there would be a basis, but what if the above "judgement calls" (TS, icing) are obviously dangerous to the safety of the flight? As an FO what can you do? Any current 121 captains, or FO's with insight would be much appreciated...Thanks.

desertdog71 · January 3rd, 2007, 01:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSS

When in an airline interview, and they ask, "your captain descends below mins...wwyd?" etc, etc, etc... what are they looking for? My question is basically, what are they looking for there? I have no 121 experience, and obviously, using common sense, know that if the captain is doing something that is dangerous, you cannot just sit there and let it happen. However, is there a "right" answer, in regard to when exactly you would (as an FO) take the controls?? Any thoughts just in general as to when you are permitted to question the PIC's decision making (ie: going through a thunderstorm, icing, ect)? If he's breaking a FAR then I know there would be a basis, but what if the above "judgement calls" (TS, icing) are obviously dangerous to the safety of the flight? As an FO what can you do? Any current 121 captains, or FO's with insight would be much appreciated...Thanks.

Announce Minimums, communicate the missed approach to ATC and fly the plane if the Capt is non-responsive. Just a guess though.

greaper007 · January 3rd, 2007, 01:23

From what I understand there isn't a right answer. There is a right series of answer's though. First would be to say something to the capt. If he doesn't respond or keeps going then you need to take corrective action. Most people say announce a missed approach on the radio, which forces you to take that missed approach. The last thing you want to do is grab the controls, a power struggle at 100 ft off the ground in IMC isn't very safe.

Make sure you put it in your own words though. From what I understand airlines hate canned answers.

DE727UPS · January 3rd, 2007, 02:31

"Most people say announce a missed approach on the radio, which forces you to take that missed approach"

Why? I don't see how the F/O making a call to ATC that the Capt disagrees with is going to force him into a go-around.

Our book makes a go-around mandatory if either pilot announces it for any reason.

It's really pretty simple. If the Capt is unresponsive, you take the plane. If he is responsive, be sure your get your voice on the CVR saying "go-around, go-around", all the way down.

JEP · January 3rd, 2007, 07:43

The answer I have seen here most is a 1,2,3 rule of sorts.

Announce mins, one time. Maybe CA doesn't hear you.

Announce mins a second time. Still no response, assume CA is unresponsive.

Take control of the a/c and announce go-around.

B767Driver · January 3rd, 2007, 11:50

This is how I would approach the situation in an interview as well as in practice.

First of all, ensure that the captain is not incapacitated. If he does not verbally respond to you (after 2 or 3 attempts)...assume that he is incapacitated...announce, "I am taking the flight controls" in a distinct, assertive and terse tone...and fly the airplane safely away from the ground. Use the automation to the maximum extent possible.

If the captain does respond and continues his course...monitor flight path and airspeed and continue to verbalize your desire to miss the approach. Do not take the controls unless a crash is imminent.

Bigey · January 3rd, 2007, 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by B767Driver

This is how I would approach the situation in an interview as well as in practice.

First of all, ensure that the captain is not incapacitated. If he does not verbally respond to you (after 2 or 3 attempts)...assume that he is incapacitated...announce, "I am taking the flight controls" in a distinct, assertive and terse tone...and fly the airplane safely away from the ground. Use the automation to the maximum extent possible.

If the captain does respond and continues his course...monitor flight path and airspeed and continue to verbalize your desire to miss the approach. Do not take the controls unless a crash is imminent.

I like this idea.

The way i look at it, is you wanna avoid a struggle of controls so close to the ground. Clear yourself by announcing go around go around go around. If he is responsive but still continuing, my suggestion is he's not gonna stop, continue announcing go around but in the end help the situation. By that i mean help him bring the plane down. Just because you're scared that you might get in trouble, remember safety is first.

If he is going to land it even if he's not supposed to and he's determined on doing so, it's better to have 2 heads working on it, than 1.

saxman66 · January 3rd, 2007, 18:46

I've discussed this with guys that actually do interviews. I would never take control of the aircraft unless we're going to crash. If we're not, just land but get your voice on the CVR. I'd rather be on the ground ASAP safely, then argue with the CA. The argument can come later when you're parked at the gate.

ready2fly · January 4th, 2007, 13:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by B767Driver

This is how I would approach the situation in an interview as well as in practice.

First of all, ensure that the captain is not incapacitated. If he does not verbally respond to you (after 2 or 3 attempts)...assume that he is incapacitated...announce, "I am taking the flight controls" in a distinct, assertive and terse tone...and fly the airplane safely away from the ground. Use the automation to the maximum extent possible.

If the captain does respond and continues his course...monitor flight path and airspeed and continue to verbalize your desire to miss the approach. Do not take the controls unless a crash is imminent.

I like most of this approach to the situation except for the part I bolded.

If you wait until a crash is "imminent" then it's too late.

I don't want my wife to hear my voice on a recorder saying "minimums. Captain - minimums! Go missed! Go missed! GO MISSED! OH GOD NO!!!"

Not trying to be funny in the least, but you absolutely cannot wait until the last second to take the plane.

UAL747400 · January 5th, 2007, 12:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by ready2fly

I like most of this approach to the situation except for the part I bolded.

If you wait until a crash is "imminent" then it's too late.

I don't want my wife to hear my voice on a recorder saying "minimums. Captain - minimums! Go missed! Go missed! GO MISSED! OH GOD NO!!!"

Not trying to be funny in the least, but you absolutely cannot wait until the last second to take the plane.

I agree, however I can see where a struggle for control can be just as dangerous as proceeding below minimums. The decision to take control would depend on where I was. If I were in the midwest landing at an airport that I know doesn't have any significant obstacles, then I would probably let him land. If it were any different, I'd probably be more assertive.

That's the way I see it for now. I'm no airline pilot. I don't fly as a crew for that matter. I'm thinking this is more of a problem with the corporate guys though.

taseal · January 7th, 2007, 15:55

interesting thread

January 3rd, 2007, 01:14	#1
JSS Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Vero Beach Posts: 35	FO's Authority?? When in an airline interview, and they ask, "your captain descends below mins...wwyd?" etc, etc, etc... what are they looking for? My question is basically, what are they looking for there? I have no 121 experience, and obviously, using common sense, know that if the captain is doing something that is dangerous, you cannot just sit there and let it happen. However, is there a "right" answer, in regard to when exactly you would (as an FO) take the controls?? Any thoughts just in general as to when you are permitted to question the PIC's decision making (ie: going through a thunderstorm, icing, ect)? If he's breaking a FAR then I know there would be a basis, but what if the above "judgement calls" (TS, icing) are obviously dangerous to the safety of the flight? As an FO what can you do? Any current 121 captains, or FO's with insight would be much appreciated...Thanks.

January 3rd, 2007, 01:23	#3
greaper007 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: West Hartford, Ct Posts: 1,059	Re: FO's Authority?? From what I understand there isn't a right answer. There is a right series of answer's though. First would be to say something to the capt. If he doesn't respond or keeps going then you need to take corrective action. Most people say announce a missed approach on the radio, which forces you to take that missed approach. The last thing you want to do is grab the controls, a power struggle at 100 ft off the ground in IMC isn't very safe. Make sure you put it in your own words though. From what I understand airlines hate canned answers. __________________ <<<<<Hunter S. Thompson extends the Gonzo concept to flying.

January 3rd, 2007, 02:31	#4
DE727UPS Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 6,515	Re: FO's Authority?? "Most people say announce a missed approach on the radio, which forces you to take that missed approach" Why? I don't see how the F/O making a call to ATC that the Capt disagrees with is going to force him into a go-around. Our book makes a go-around mandatory if either pilot announces it for any reason. It's really pretty simple. If the Capt is unresponsive, you take the plane. If he is responsive, be sure your get your voice on the CVR saying "go-around, go-around", all the way down.

January 3rd, 2007, 07:43	#5
JEP Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Eden Prairie, MN (KFCM) (KMSP) Posts: 10,710 Blog Entries: 1	Re: FO's Authority?? The answer I have seen here most is a 1,2,3 rule of sorts. Announce mins, one time. Maybe CA doesn't hear you. Announce mins a second time. Still no response, assume CA is unresponsive. Take control of the a/c and announce go-around. __________________ NJC or Bust.....CountDown Timer

January 3rd, 2007, 11:50	#6
B767Driver Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,853	Re: FO's Authority?? This is how I would approach the situation in an interview as well as in practice. First of all, ensure that the captain is not incapacitated. If he does not verbally respond to you (after 2 or 3 attempts)...assume that he is incapacitated...announce, "I am taking the flight controls" in a distinct, assertive and terse tone...and fly the airplane safely away from the ground. Use the automation to the maximum extent possible. If the captain does respond and continues his course...monitor flight path and airspeed and continue to verbalize your desire to miss the approach. Do not take the controls unless a crash is imminent.

January 3rd, 2007, 18:46	#8
saxman66 Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: JFK Posts: 214	Re: FO's Authority?? I've discussed this with guys that actually do interviews. I would never take control of the aircraft unless we're going to crash. If we're not, just land but get your voice on the CVR. I'd rather be on the ground ASAP safely, then argue with the CA. The argument can come later when you're parked at the gate. __________________ http://homepage.mac.com/christow

January 7th, 2007, 15:55	#11
taseal Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Boca Raton, FL Posts: 1,934	Re: FO's Authority?? interesting thread

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