Pa28 & Cg

B767Driver · March 27th, 2006, 14:22

I rarely fly my airplane with just me and another adult male in the front seat...no backseaters. It's usually my wife (fairly petite) or one of my daughters (7 years and 3 years old) in the front seat. But I've noticed with two adult males in the front...I've been running out of elevator on landing. I want another inch of travel before touchdown.

With two adult males...the airplane is right on the forward CG limit. So I put 50 pounds worth of dumbbells in the cargo space. Worked the weight and balance...and the CG only moved 2" aft. I didn't think that was much of a move in CG...and didn't expect to notice much difference.

But...what a difference it was. I flew with a buddy of mine this morning...and the added ballast affected the landing flare quite noticeably. It was perfect.

I bring this post up for a couple of reasons. 1) I didn't realize that a small change in CG could have such a noticeable affect. 2) For some of the newer pilots (under 50 hours) who are just about to get their private certificate...and who have only ever flown solo or with an instructor...when you start carrying passengers for the first time...the 2 or 3 passengers that you have on board will make the airplane behave much differently than when it was just the pilot solo or with his instructor.

I have memories from about 15 years or so ago...I took 3 people up for a ride...most of my flying had been training and was not used to the load. I remember being fairly surprised at just how different the airplane reacted.

I think it would be a good idea for a brand new pilot to invite his instructor along after the checkride, with a friend or two, to experience the change in handling and performance with a loaded airplane. At any rate...expect the airplane to handle a little different than during the solo cross countries!

specialK · March 27th, 2006, 16:57

At the flight school I instruct at, we have 40lb water jugs sitting out on the ramp incase you are a little forward on your C.G. and just like you i didn't think it would make much of a difference but it actually did surprisingly. We had to use in the seminoles the most but also a few times in the arrows and they do make a difference.

EatSleepFly · March 27th, 2006, 17:44

One of the places I instructed at required a max weight checkout before renting to any new private pilots. I think some saw it as a money-maker, but it's not a bad idea at all, IMO.

OneNineHundy · March 27th, 2006, 21:42

Im not too sure if it is a New Zealand requirement or just what we do at our organisation but for the issue of any type rating you must do a max all up weight check as your final flight.

Ryan

UAL747400 · March 28th, 2006, 12:40

Uh-oh, and airline guy in a small GA airplane! Thats dangerous man.

What kind of PA-28 are you flying? I cant say I've ever really noticed a difference with performance carrying passengers except for when I was doing my training in a PA-28-140(cherokee cruiser). My instructor weighed 260 pounds!

I normally fly a warrior, archer, or arrow. Could be I'm not to hard to notice. I guess I cant say that though, I like to take my friends up to 10000 if there is time and I've noticed climb performance dimish to almost nothing around 8,000 in a warrior and archer a few times. Arrows rock!

moxiepilot · March 28th, 2006, 22:21

UAL, what the HECK is your avitar???

lol

UAL747400 · March 28th, 2006, 23:19

It technical name is "banalama". hehe

I saw it posted in thecarlounge forums right after a quote of probably the stupidest thing any car enthusiast has ever read. So its kind of an insult thing I guess. I just think its stupid funny.

I rarely post in any of the other forums anymore, except UND's, so no one else on here is quite used to this thing yet. Almost everytime I post somewhere else I get comments. As I should I think. I mean, look at that thing! Doesnt it dang near make you roll on the floor looking at it???

[end hijack]

dakovich · March 29th, 2006, 19:13

2" of cg movement is quite a bit considering that the cg range is only about 9" total from most rearward to most forward. also gotta say that i fly a p28 much of the time right near the most forward CG and never come close to not having enough elevator...be very acurate with your weight and balance calculations

March 27th, 2006, 14:22	#1
B767Driver Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,888	Pa28 & Cg I rarely fly my airplane with just me and another adult male in the front seat...no backseaters. It's usually my wife (fairly petite) or one of my daughters (7 years and 3 years old) in the front seat. But I've noticed with two adult males in the front...I've been running out of elevator on landing. I want another inch of travel before touchdown. With two adult males...the airplane is right on the forward CG limit. So I put 50 pounds worth of dumbbells in the cargo space. Worked the weight and balance...and the CG only moved 2" aft. I didn't think that was much of a move in CG...and didn't expect to notice much difference. But...what a difference it was. I flew with a buddy of mine this morning...and the added ballast affected the landing flare quite noticeably. It was perfect. I bring this post up for a couple of reasons. 1) I didn't realize that a small change in CG could have such a noticeable affect. 2) For some of the newer pilots (under 50 hours) who are just about to get their private certificate...and who have only ever flown solo or with an instructor...when you start carrying passengers for the first time...the 2 or 3 passengers that you have on board will make the airplane behave much differently than when it was just the pilot solo or with his instructor. I have memories from about 15 years or so ago...I took 3 people up for a ride...most of my flying had been training and was not used to the load. I remember being fairly surprised at just how different the airplane reacted. I think it would be a good idea for a brand new pilot to invite his instructor along after the checkride, with a friend or two, to experience the change in handling and performance with a loaded airplane. At any rate...expect the airplane to handle a little different than during the solo cross countries!

March 27th, 2006, 16:57	#2
specialK Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: PHX Posts: 52	At the flight school I instruct at, we have 40lb water jugs sitting out on the ramp incase you are a little forward on your C.G. and just like you i didn't think it would make much of a difference but it actually did surprisingly. We had to use in the seminoles the most but also a few times in the arrows and they do make a difference. __________________ Failure to prepare is preparing for failure.

March 28th, 2006, 12:40	#5
UAL747400 Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Grand Forks, ND (UND)/ Davenport, IA Posts: 2,204	Uh-oh, and airline guy in a small GA airplane! Thats dangerous man. What kind of PA-28 are you flying? I cant say I've ever really noticed a difference with performance carrying passengers except for when I was doing my training in a PA-28-140(cherokee cruiser). My instructor weighed 260 pounds! I normally fly a warrior, archer, or arrow. Could be I'm not to hard to notice. I guess I cant say that though, I like to take my friends up to 10000 if there is time and I've noticed climb performance dimish to almost nothing around 8,000 in a warrior and archer a few times. Arrows rock! __________________

March 28th, 2006, 23:19	#7
UAL747400 Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Grand Forks, ND (UND)/ Davenport, IA Posts: 2,204	It technical name is "banalama". hehe I saw it posted in thecarlounge forums right after a quote of probably the stupidest thing any car enthusiast has ever read. So its kind of an insult thing I guess. I just think its stupid funny. I rarely post in any of the other forums anymore, except UND's, so no one else on here is quite used to this thing yet. Almost everytime I post somewhere else I get comments. As I should I think. I mean, look at that thing! Doesnt it dang near make you roll on the floor looking at it??? [end hijack] __________________

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March 27th, 2006, 17:44	#3
EatSleepFly Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: ?? Posts: 4,600	One of the places I instructed at required a max weight checkout before renting to any new private pilots. I think some saw it as a money-maker, but it's not a bad idea at all, IMO.

March 27th, 2006, 21:42	#4
OneNineHundy Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: New Zealand Posts: 84	Im not too sure if it is a New Zealand requirement or just what we do at our organisation but for the issue of any type rating you must do a max all up weight check as your final flight. Ryan

March 28th, 2006, 22:21	#6
moxiepilot Old Skool Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: CFI / CFII in PA Posts: 2,712	UAL, what the HECK is your avitar??? lol

March 29th, 2006, 19:13	#8
dakovich Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Buffalo, NY Posts: 1,032	2" of cg movement is quite a bit considering that the cg range is only about 9" total from most rearward to most forward. also gotta say that i fly a p28 much of the time right near the most forward CG and never come close to not having enough elevator...be very acurate with your weight and balance calculations