IFR Departure Procedures

B767Driver · February 15th, 2006, 22:11

Here's a question for you guys...I've seemed to run into some ambiguity on this lately.

If an IFR Departure Procedure is published for an airport (you know the one on the back of the 10-9 page for Jepps or labeled with a 'T' on the NOS)...and you are flying on an IFR flight plan, are you legally bound to fly the procedure? What if it is IMC? How about if it it VMC?

I was always taught that if you were operating under IFR (regardless of weather conditions) that you were obligated to fly the IFR DP. I've flown with some guys who say otherwise.

I've consulted the AIM and it says the pilot is responsible for deciding whether to fly the DP or not based upon terrain and weather conditions. So now I'm confused.

CFII's...what are you teaching?

Chris_Ford · February 15th, 2006, 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by B767Driver

CFII's...what are you teaching?

I'd just rather they err on the side of caution and fly the DP (obstacle DP I'm assuming) unless something dictates they do something else (traffic, weather, whatever).

subpilot · February 15th, 2006, 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by B767Driver

I've consulted the AIM and it says the pilot is responsible for deciding whether to fly the DP or not based upon terrain and weather conditions.

That is the answer. It is up to the PIC to ensure obstacle clearance.

ajf005 · February 16th, 2006, 08:25

No you do not have to fly a DP. If you put "No STAR/DP" in the remarks section of your flight plan ATC will not give you one but I have heard if it is a real busy area they will fly you on that STAR/DP with vectors.

Chris_Ford · February 16th, 2006, 09:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajf005

No you do not have to fly a DP. If you put "No STAR/DP" in the remarks section of your flight plan ATC will not give you one but I have heard if it is a real busy area they will fly you on that STAR/DP with vectors.

Don't you still have to fly obstacle DPs???

jrh · February 16th, 2006, 10:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by subpilot

It is up to the PIC to ensure obstacle clearance.

I agree with that. I've heard of some cargo pilots who came up with their own DP out of La Grande, Oregon, KLGD, a small airport without radar coverage and some decent sized mountains around it. The official obstacle DP requires several turns, climbing outbound, then back inbound using an NDB, etc. I think the cargo pilots took into account the climb performance of their aircraft and figured out a safe heading to fly, which gets them out of the mountains sooner. I'm not 100% sure of what they did, it's been a long time since I heard the story...but the bottom line is, they didn't use the published DP, and nobody cared. Obstacle DPs are a guaranteed safe, predictable way to depart...but not legally required.

EatSleepFly · February 16th, 2006, 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajf005

No you do not have to fly a DP. If you put "No STAR/DP" in the remarks section of your flight plan ATC will not give you one but I have heard if it is a real busy area they will fly you on that STAR/DP with vectors.

I think perhaps you might be confusing types of departure procedures. If ATC assigns you a Departure Procedure, you must fly it. "No DP" isn't really meant for Obstacle Departure Procedures, since those are at pilots' discretion anyways- ATC wouldn't assign you an ODP. They might assign you a Departure Procedure, which would keep you clear of obstacles and would have a name ("Portland 5" Departure). An obstacle DP is unnamed and would be found on the airport diagram (or reverse) on Jepp charts (not sure about NOS), for each particular runway (such as "Rwy 34- Climbing left turn to 3000, then direct XYZ, continue climbing in hold at XYZ until at or above 7,000").

E_Dawg · February 16th, 2006, 17:07

Just to add something - I've been given an odp from ATC several times in the past, always prefaced with them asking if I can accept it.

B767Driver · February 16th, 2006, 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by E_Dawg

Just to add something - I've been given an odp from ATC several times in the past, always prefaced with them asking if I can accept it.

Do you plan the ODP (for climb gradient), engine out? Or all engines operating?

I think you only need to meet the gradient with all engines operating...however probably a good idea to know if you're likely to hit something if the engine quits...at least have a plan.

My airline plans all ODP analysis for an engine out...but legally...I don't think you have to.

E_Dawg · February 16th, 2006, 18:30

An engine out procedure is listed where needed for terrain along with performance numbers for a given runway.

B767Driver · February 16th, 2006, 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by E_Dawg

An engine out procedure is listed where needed for terrain along with performance numbers for a given runway.

Are you talking about an airline type performance analysis or part 91/97 charts?

Anyway, my question pertained more towards a minimum climb gradient required for obstacle protection. As long as you can meet the gradient with all engines operating...I think you are legal. But if the engine fails...you may not be able to meet the gradient.

Typically, an airline type performance analysis will ensure all obstacles can be cleared after takeoff...and is probably not a bad idea for part 91 as well. Or at least have a plan to clear the obstacle should the engine fail and the minimum climb gradient become unattainable.

EatSleepFly · February 18th, 2006, 13:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by E_Dawg

Just to add something - I've been given an odp from ATC several times in the past, always prefaced with them asking if I can accept it.

Oh ok. I can't remember ever being given one. If I don't fly it, I let them know that I am maintaining my own terrain clearance- otherwise they ask.

Cheechako · February 21st, 2006, 18:02

A good example is coming out of Bozeman, MT. The 10-9 has an obstacle departure. Salt Lake Center won't see you on their radar because of terrain until 6000-7000' AFE. If it's IMC and I can't see the mountains to the south, I'll do the whole bow-tie DP. If I can see, I'll head south and tell center I'm on a VFR climb southbound. They'll usually say to maintain VFR to their MVA, then climb to and maintiain FLxxx.

It does beg the question of maintaining climb and drift-down performance if you lose an engine....

DrBenny · February 22nd, 2006, 23:42

DPs are not required, but if you accept one in a clearance, then you have to fly it.

If there is an ODP, you'd best fly it.

seagull · February 25th, 2006, 08:53

Whether the ODP is required in the scenario given (night or IMC) is a function of what part of the regs you're operating under. If you are under 121 you are required to fly it, and that is ALPA policy on the issue as well. ATC can assign something different, but the caution is that they will also approve something different if you request it, even though you are not legal to do that. A good example is people that ask for a VMC climb out of SLC to avoid heading West to gain altitude before crossing the mountains to the East. That is perfectly legal if you are not 121 or a turbojet operating under 135. Otherwise, I hope you have a legal exemption from the folks in D.C. (a letter from your POI may or may not be of any help at the hearing, but historically it is not worth anything).

jawright · February 27th, 2006, 11:13

Pardon my ignorance, but I am working on my instrument rating and um...what is the difference between an obstacle departure procedure and a regular departure procedure? I thought one of the main reasons for DP's were for obstacle clearance.

B767Driver · February 27th, 2006, 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by jawright

Pardon my ignorance, but I am working on my instrument rating and um...what is the difference between an obstacle departure procedure and a regular departure procedure? I thought one of the main reasons for DP's were for obstacle clearance.

You are right, partially. A SID can be published for 2 reasons....1) Obstacle Clearance or 2) to make more efficient ATC procedures. Either one of those reason can be for the issuance of a SID.

An IFR Departure Procedure...more recently known as an Obstacle Departure Procedure...will not be in SID format...but found on the Jepp charts on the back of the airport diagram. You should always check for these procedures when flying IFR to determine if they exist and should be flown.

Consult your instructor for more info.

B767Driver · February 27th, 2006, 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by seagull

Whether the ODP is required in the scenario given (night or IMC) is a function of what part of the regs you're operating under. If you are under 121 you are required to fly it, and that is ALPA policy on the issue as well. ATC can assign something different, but the caution is that they will also approve something different if you request it, even though you are not legal to do that. A good example is people that ask for a VMC climb out of SLC to avoid heading West to gain altitude before crossing the mountains to the East. That is perfectly legal if you are not 121 or a turbojet operating under 135. Otherwise, I hope you have a legal exemption from the folks in D.C. (a letter from your POI may or may not be of any help at the hearing, but historically it is not worth anything).

I cannot find where Part 121 requires the ODP to be flown. Do you have a reference?

My company manual requires the SID or ODP to be flown...so from that standpoint...I know I have to fly it. It also give radar vectors from ATC a higher priority than the ODP...so if I'm given an ATC assigned clearance...it takes precedence over the ODP...consistent with your post above.

I have no idea if my Part 121 airline has an exemption from DC not to fly the ODP...but my FAA approved airway manual insert for my company has specific procedures to fly the VMC climb over the mountains out of KSLC.

seagull · February 27th, 2006, 22:37

That's because, like most of the rules under which we fly under in airline ops, it is not in the FAR, nor is it in the AIM. This stuff is scattered throughout the Ops Specs, HBATs, ACs and a few other places. It is then compiled into that little book usually called the FOM, but can take on various other, but similar, names.

In this particular instance, it is an Ops Spec requirement.

As for your SLC VMC climbs, I am aware your airline does that. I am not sure that anyone at FAA Hq is aware of it, although your POI would appear to be. Does that make it legal? Absent a letter of excemption from FAA Hq, I would be a bit careful, personally. A letter from the POI wouldn't cut it, but this is an issue for an ALPA committee to take on, I think.

pavelump · February 28th, 2006, 01:59

From Instrument Procedures Handbook (FAA-H-8261-1)

(Page 2-16)
OBSTACLE DEPARTURE PROCEDURES
The term obstacle departure procedure (ODP)is used to define procedures that simply provide obstacle clearance. ODPs are only used for obstruction clearance and do not include ATC related climb requirements. In fact, the primary emphasis of ODP design is to use the least onerous route of flight to the en route structure while attempting to accommodate typical departure routes.

(Page 2-17)
STANDARD INSTRUMENT DEPARTURES
A standard instrument departure (SID)is an ATC requested and developed departure route, typically used in busy terminal areas. It is designed at the request of ATC in order to increase capacity of terminal airspace, effectively control the flow of traffic with minimal communication, and reduce environmental impact through noise abatement procedures.

Page 2-24
PROCEDURES NOT ASSIGNED BY ATC
Obstacle departure procedures are not assigned by ATC unless absolutely necessary to achieve aircraft separation. It is your responsibility to determine if there is an ODP published for that airport. If you are not given a clearance for a SID or radar vectors and an ODP exists, you must use the ODP. Additionally, ATC expects you to comply with the published procedure unless the weather at your departure airport lends itself to a departure under VFR conditions and you can see and avoid obstacles in the vicinity.

So, in other words, you would use an ODP unless one of the following exists.

1. You can visually depart from the airport;
2. You have received a SID clearance; or
3. You have received radar vectors (i.e. not in an area covered by radar).

It's not really just a part 121 thing. I would suggest investing in this book for all instrument pilots/students. Lots of good information. Jeppesen makes a version of it too which I bought that is tailored towards their charts, but is essentially the same book (but more expensive).

Dave

seagull · February 28th, 2006, 02:13

121 is more restrictive than that as VMC is not an allowable alternative.

As for your #3, you can't very well have a vector absent radar, so not sure what you're saying there.

jrh · February 28th, 2006, 05:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by pavelump

If you are not given a clearance for a SID or radar vectors and an ODP exists, you must use the ODP.

Interesting. I always thought they were just "good operating practice," but not necessarily mandatory.

Not that the Instrument Procedures Handbook isn't authoritative enough, but do you have a FAR and/or AIM reference to go along with this?

B767Driver · February 28th, 2006, 08:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrh

Interesting. I always thought they were just "good operating practice," but not necessarily mandatory.

Not that the Instrument Procedures Handbook isn't authoritative enough, but do you have a FAR and/or AIM reference to go along with this?

AIM Par 5-2-6. Instrument Departure Proc - Obstacle Departure Proc - and Standard Instrument Departure Proc.

The AIM states that, if VFR, you can maneuver visually to avoid obstructions...Part 91.

Seagull has advised, Part 121/135 operators must comply with the ODP as textually published. I'd agree with that as well.

Now here's another layer. Do Part 121/135 operators have to be able to meet the SID/ODP climb gradients on a single engine? I think the answer to that is yes...they do. Regulations require the 'net flight path' to clear all obstructions either by a height of 35' vertically or 200' or 300' horizontally until 1500' agl or attainment of final segment climb speed, whichever is greater.

Do Part 91 operators have to meet this restriction? No...I don't think they do.

So what is 'net flight path'? It's the path found by reducing the regulatory climb gradient .8%.

Pretty good stuff...

pavelump · February 28th, 2006, 12:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by seagull

121 is more restrictive than that as VMC is not an allowable alternative.

As for your #3, you can't very well have a vector absent radar, so not sure what you're saying there.

Woops, I had edited that to try and be more clear, but I missed that part. What I meant to say was:

You would use an ODP unless one of the following exists:

1. You can visually depart from the airport; (if your ops specs allow...)
2. You have received a SID clearance; or
3. You have received radar vectors

As far as part 121 not allowing VMC departures, I'm not sure that it's in part 121 per se (at least I couldn't find it), but rather the Ops Specs of a particular airline which is just as controlling as part 121 yadda yadda yadda, but I think that you already said that...

I had to go look it up in our op specs (American Eagle) and it agrees w/ what you are saying. Of the several requirements that have to be met for a VMC departure, two of them state:

"The flight crew must comply with the Departure Procedures established for a particular airport by the FAA", and;

"At airports where a Departure Procedure has not been established, the airport diagram will be used in order to identify obstacles and obstructions around the airport."

seagull · February 28th, 2006, 20:44

At one time the Ops Specs were pretty different from carrier to carrier, with each POI pretty much doing their own thing. In the early 90s, Jerry Davis, then manager of AFS-400 (now works for Airbus flight safety) created the "New Standard Ops Specs". Now, all airlines start with the essentially same set of Specs, and each can tailor to their needs by applying various standard exemptions which they can apply for.

As for single engine performance, the answer is "no". The ODP is predicated on "all engine" performance. If you lose one, you are NOT guaranteed those gradients (although jets usually would make them). That is the reason for the EODP, and, absent that, it's up to the pilots, which is yet another reason you don't want the "fat, dumb and happy" breed up front.

February 15th, 2006, 22:11	#1
B767Driver Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,883	IFR Departure Procedures Here's a question for you guys...I've seemed to run into some ambiguity on this lately. If an IFR Departure Procedure is published for an airport (you know the one on the back of the 10-9 page for Jepps or labeled with a 'T' on the NOS)...and you are flying on an IFR flight plan, are you legally bound to fly the procedure? What if it is IMC? How about if it it VMC? I was always taught that if you were operating under IFR (regardless of weather conditions) that you were obligated to fly the IFR DP. I've flown with some guys who say otherwise. I've consulted the AIM and it says the pilot is responsible for deciding whether to fly the DP or not based upon terrain and weather conditions. So now I'm confused. CFII's...what are you teaching?

February 16th, 2006, 17:07	#8
E_Dawg Moderator Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: chicago Posts: 4,232	Just to add something - I've been given an odp from ATC several times in the past, always prefaced with them asking if I can accept it. __________________ Yeah, I just stare at my desk; but it looks like I'm working. I do that for probably another hour after lunch, too. I'd say in a given week I probably only do about fifteen minutes of real, actual, work.

February 16th, 2006, 18:30	#10
E_Dawg Moderator Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: chicago Posts: 4,232	An engine out procedure is listed where needed for terrain along with performance numbers for a given runway. __________________ Yeah, I just stare at my desk; but it looks like I'm working. I do that for probably another hour after lunch, too. I'd say in a given week I probably only do about fifteen minutes of real, actual, work.

February 21st, 2006, 18:02	#13
Cheechako Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Wasilla, AK Posts: 984	A good example is coming out of Bozeman, MT. The 10-9 has an obstacle departure. Salt Lake Center won't see you on their radar because of terrain until 6000-7000' AFE. If it's IMC and I can't see the mountains to the south, I'll do the whole bow-tie DP. If I can see, I'll head south and tell center I'm on a VFR climb southbound. They'll usually say to maintain VFR to their MVA, then climb to and maintiain FLxxx. It does beg the question of maintaining climb and drift-down performance if you lose an engine.... __________________ Urban Dictionary: /chee-CHA-ko/ Alaska Airlines 737 FO http://www.AllAboutGod.com

February 22nd, 2006, 23:42	#14
DrBenny Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: MD Posts: 395	DPs are not required, but if you accept one in a clearance, then you have to fly it. If there is an ODP, you'd best fly it. __________________ Benjamin Myers Enjoying every minute

February 16th, 2006, 08:25	#4
ajf005 Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Louisiana Posts: 138	No you do not have to fly a DP. If you put "No STAR/DP" in the remarks section of your flight plan ATC will not give you one but I have heard if it is a real busy area they will fly you on that STAR/DP with vectors.

February 25th, 2006, 08:53	#15
seagull Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 2,045	Whether the ODP is required in the scenario given (night or IMC) is a function of what part of the regs you're operating under. If you are under 121 you are required to fly it, and that is ALPA policy on the issue as well. ATC can assign something different, but the caution is that they will also approve something different if you request it, even though you are not legal to do that. A good example is people that ask for a VMC climb out of SLC to avoid heading West to gain altitude before crossing the mountains to the East. That is perfectly legal if you are not 121 or a turbojet operating under 135. Otherwise, I hope you have a legal exemption from the folks in D.C. (a letter from your POI may or may not be of any help at the hearing, but historically it is not worth anything).

February 27th, 2006, 11:13	#16
jawright Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: in search of the elusive "BowieGoat." Posts: 424	Pardon my ignorance, but I am working on my instrument rating and um...what is the difference between an obstacle departure procedure and a regular departure procedure? I thought one of the main reasons for DP's were for obstacle clearance.

February 27th, 2006, 22:37	#19
seagull Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 2,045	That's because, like most of the rules under which we fly under in airline ops, it is not in the FAR, nor is it in the AIM. This stuff is scattered throughout the Ops Specs, HBATs, ACs and a few other places. It is then compiled into that little book usually called the FOM, but can take on various other, but similar, names. In this particular instance, it is an Ops Spec requirement. As for your SLC VMC climbs, I am aware your airline does that. I am not sure that anyone at FAA Hq is aware of it, although your POI would appear to be. Does that make it legal? Absent a letter of excemption from FAA Hq, I would be a bit careful, personally. A letter from the POI wouldn't cut it, but this is an issue for an ALPA committee to take on, I think.

February 28th, 2006, 01:59	#20
pavelump Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 790	From Instrument Procedures Handbook (FAA-H-8261-1) (Page 2-16) OBSTACLE DEPARTURE PROCEDURES The term obstacle departure procedure (ODP)is used to define procedures that simply provide obstacle clearance. ODPs are only used for obstruction clearance and do not include ATC related climb requirements. In fact, the primary emphasis of ODP design is to use the least onerous route of flight to the en route structure while attempting to accommodate typical departure routes. (Page 2-17) STANDARD INSTRUMENT DEPARTURES A standard instrument departure (SID)is an ATC requested and developed departure route, typically used in busy terminal areas. It is designed at the request of ATC in order to increase capacity of terminal airspace, effectively control the flow of traffic with minimal communication, and reduce environmental impact through noise abatement procedures. Page 2-24 PROCEDURES NOT ASSIGNED BY ATC Obstacle departure procedures are not assigned by ATC unless absolutely necessary to achieve aircraft separation. It is your responsibility to determine if there is an ODP published for that airport. If you are not given a clearance for a SID or radar vectors and an ODP exists, you must use the ODP. Additionally, ATC expects you to comply with the published procedure unless the weather at your departure airport lends itself to a departure under VFR conditions and you can see and avoid obstacles in the vicinity. So, in other words, you would use an ODP unless one of the following exists. 1. You can visually depart from the airport; 2. You have received a SID clearance; or 3. You have received radar vectors (i.e. not in an area covered by radar). It's not really just a part 121 thing. I would suggest investing in this book for all instrument pilots/students. Lots of good information. Jeppesen makes a version of it too which I bought that is tailored towards their charts, but is essentially the same book (but more expensive). Dave

February 28th, 2006, 02:13	#21
seagull Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 2,045	121 is more restrictive than that as VMC is not an allowable alternative. As for your #3, you can't very well have a vector absent radar, so not sure what you're saying there.

February 28th, 2006, 20:44	#25
seagull Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 2,045	At one time the Ops Specs were pretty different from carrier to carrier, with each POI pretty much doing their own thing. In the early 90s, Jerry Davis, then manager of AFS-400 (now works for Airbus flight safety) created the "New Standard Ops Specs". Now, all airlines start with the essentially same set of Specs, and each can tailor to their needs by applying various standard exemptions which they can apply for. As for single engine performance, the answer is "no". The ODP is predicated on "all engine" performance. If you lose one, you are NOT guaranteed those gradients (although jets usually would make them). That is the reason for the EODP, and, absent that, it's up to the pilots, which is yet another reason you don't want the "fat, dumb and happy" breed up front.

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