When would you descend?

av8rmsu · November 30th, 2005, 00:39

You vectored to intercept the ILS 19R localizer into Kenai. When would you descend to 1400?

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0511/01235I19R.PDF

i hope this link works

DE727UPS · November 30th, 2005, 00:52

Well. If you are established on the LOC and inside TBONE, you are good to 1400, if you have an approach clearance.

DME is off the VOR, not the LOC. A Beech 99 crew got killed in Spokane once for messing that part up and it should be in big bold letters on every approach chart.

av8rmsu · November 30th, 2005, 00:54

what if you are doing ther procedure turn and outside TBONE on the inbound

av8rmsu · November 30th, 2005, 00:55

DME is not required

"ADF or DME required"

av8rmsu · November 30th, 2005, 00:56

This is not a trick question for anyone...i'm just trying to get some different points of view.

jeskoe · November 30th, 2005, 01:01

The way I see it, if you are flying the procedure turn, once you are established inbound, you can begin your descent down to 1400 until intercepting your glide slope, even if you haven't reached FREDE. If you are vectored to final, they will say, "maintain 2000 until established, cleared for ILS approach," I maintain 2000 until intercepting the glide slope.

av8rmsu · November 30th, 2005, 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeskoe

The way I see it, if you are flying the procedure turn, once you are established inbound, you can begin your descent down to 1400 until intercepting your glide slope, even if you haven't reached FREDE. If you are vectored to final, they will say, "maintain 2000 until established, cleared for ILS approach," I maintain 2000 until intercepting the glide slope.

"2000' until established"

would you not want to descend before intercepting the GS

jeskoe · November 30th, 2005, 01:17

In my "limited" experience, they will have you intercept the localizer at a 20 or 30 degree angle. For example, your last vector will be "44Z, turn right heading 220, maintain 2000 until established, cleared for ILS 19R approach. When I do turn and intercept the glide slope, the glide slope is still going to be well above me. (I don't think they vector you onto the final approach course above the glide slope.) Then I will intercept the glide slope at 2000 feet. Obviously, this is going to happen before I reach FREDE.

av8rmsu · November 30th, 2005, 01:20

but remember that ATC is not having you turn to intercept the GS but the localizer

DE727UPS · November 30th, 2005, 02:45

Inside TBONE inbound, you'd always be good down to 1400, but you need DME for TBONE. Without DME, and with vectors to the LOC inbound, you'd stay at the ATC assigned altitude until intercepting LOC, then follow the GS down. A LOC only approach gets ugly. You gotta identify FREDE with an NDB/DME bearing? Wouldn't give me the warm fuzzies. I'd probably maintain 2000 to the VOR, but then you'd be high, so I don't know.

What I can't figure out is why it says DME or ADF required, gives lower mins for DME or ADF, but also gives LOC mins without DME or ADF, which I thought was required.

Vectors to the LOC outbound. Is that what you asked? Not sure I'd accept that as how would you know when to do your procedure turn? Doesn't make any sense.

av8rmsu · November 30th, 2005, 02:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

Inside TBONE inbound, you'd always be good down to 1400, but you need DME for TBONE. Without DME, and with vectors to the LOC inbound, you'd stay at the ATC assigned altitude until intercepting LOC, then follow the GS down. A LOC only approach gets ugly. You gotta identify FREDE with an NDB/DME bearing? Wouldn't give me the warm fuzzies. I'd probably maintain 2000 to the VOR, but then you'd be high, so I don't know.

What I can't figure out is why it says DME or ADF required, gives lower mins for DME or ADF, but also gives LOC mins without DME or ADF, which I thought was required.

Vectors to the LOC outbound. Is that what you asked? Not sure I'd accept that as how would you know when to do your procedure turn? Doesn't make any sense.

sorry if i wasn't clear...

the original question was just vectors to intercept "inbound"

i then asked about doing the entire approach with the procedure turn.

DE727UPS I guess you now know what i am getting at with the confusion...i have some captains that say 1400 after tbone and others that say 1400 at the intercept. both are safe (in my opinion, after doing it over and over vmc) but there is some discussion none the less

DE727UPS · November 30th, 2005, 03:09

Yeah. I think I know what you're talking about. I've seen a few guys, once on the LOC, descend down to the min legal altitiude on the chart for LOC only and then intercept the GS from there. I think it's better to maintain the higher altitiude until intercepting the GS and just follow it down. That's how most guys do it. If ATC said "maintain 2000 until established, cleared for the approach" you still be good down to 1400 inside TBONE since an approach clearance allows you to descend to any charted altitude. I like to say "stay at the minimum altitude on any solid black line" But, why descend early if your plan is to intercept the GS anyway. If it's LOC only, yeah, I'd get down ASAP in all cases, but not on an ILS.

Ask your Capts why the approach has LOC mins without ADF or DME when ADF or DME is required? That's the one I don't get.

B767Driver · November 30th, 2005, 11:29

If being vectored to final, you can descend to 1400MSL when within 15nm of ENA and within 1/2 scale loc deflection.

B767Driver · November 30th, 2005, 11:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

What I can't figure out is why it says DME or ADF required, gives lower mins for DME or ADF, but also gives LOC mins without DME or ADF, which I thought was required.

I pulled up the Jepp plate for this approach....and the minimums are different from the NOS chart attached above. Jepp only has the 380' minimum with the NDB...not available with the DME.

I would say it's a chart error. NOS charts are the pits.

DE727UPS · November 30th, 2005, 14:09

"If being vectored to final, you can descend to 1400MSL when within 15nm of ENA and within 1/2 scale loc deflection."

I think I see your logic on the 15nm thing, but I'm thinking 2000MSL, not 1400. Isn't the 1400 based on the 8DME fix?

DE727UPS · November 30th, 2005, 14:18

"Jepp only has the 380' minimum with the NDB...not available with the DME"

So, ADF or DME is always required based on the note at the top of the plan view, but the 380 is based on if you do have ADF in the minimums section. Gotcha. Can get lower with ADF than DME on a non-precision? And you are identifing the FAF with a crossing NDB bearing unless you have DME, but NDB still gets you lower? Alaska is a weird place..... (thank God for LNAV/VNAV, hehe)

Does Jepp show different altitudes outside TBONE, ref our 1400 vs 2000 debate?

GaTechKid · November 30th, 2005, 14:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

I think I see your logic on the 15nm thing, but I'm thinking 2000MSL, not 1400. Isn't the 1400 based on the 8DME fix?

1400' is based on remaining within 15 nm of Kenai and established inbound on the localizer. 2000' is from SWANS to TBONE, the DME arc, or the procedure turn. TBONE is depicted on the chart for the DME arc or to denote when you can descend when coming from SWANS.

B767Driver · November 30th, 2005, 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

"If being vectored to final, you can descend to 1400MSL when within 15nm of ENA and within 1/2 scale loc deflection."

I think I see your logic on the 15nm thing, but I'm thinking 2000MSL, not 1400. Isn't the 1400 based on the 8DME fix?

This is a goofy deal. I see what you're saying. 1) If you hit the IAF at SWANS and fly the published approach...you are correct...maintain 2000' until TBONE. Now, 2) If you hit the IAF at ENA and fly the procedure turn...you can descend when established on the inbound course...to 1400'...when within 15nm of ENA.

Both IAF's put you on the same place on final...but each recommends a different altitude. That's a screwy procedure.

B767Driver · November 30th, 2005, 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

"Jepp only has the 380' minimum with the NDB...not available with the DME"

So, ADF or DME is always required based on the note at the top of the plan view, but the 380 is based on if you do have ADF in the minimums section. Gotcha. Can get lower with ADF than DME on a non-precision? And you are identifing the FAF with a crossing NDB bearing unless you have DME, but NDB still gets you lower? Alaska is a weird place..... (thank God for LNAV/VNAV, hehe)

Does Jepp show different altitudes outside TBONE, ref our 1400 vs 2000 debate?

Those altitudes are the same.

I think the logic on having lower mins for the approach using the ADF is due to the fact that the DME is so close to the VOR....1.5 DME for FREDE and 1.1 for the stepdown fix. Also note a 241' obstruction almost co located with the NDB. My guess is that the approach designer felt that NDB passage meant that the obstacle was 100% cleared...while the DME might not. Pure speculation on my part.

Definitely some weird stuff.

cime_sp · December 1st, 2005, 00:20

If you ask me it's all kind if trivial....why WOULDN'T you fly the glidelsope down??? Stay as high as you can for as long as you can..you're not on fire.

Let me see, I have this jacked up approach that I can guess what the stepdown is or I can use this super-accurate guide that assures me obstacle clearance all the way to the runway!!! Also, it is MUCH easier and smoother to follow the GS from the start than to pull back the power, descend, level off at a lower altitude, add power, pull back power descend down the glideslope, etc...

DE727UPS · December 1st, 2005, 01:40

I still think you guys are all on drugs...hehe.

If you do the procedure turn, don't you still have to maintain 2000 to TBONE? 2000 is the procedure turn altitude. Intercept the LOC inbound after the procedure turn and you're still at 2000 until TBONE, then down to 1400. If you do the procedure turn and upon intercepting the LOC, you are inside TBONE, then I'd agree, you are good down to 1400.

Or am I the one on drugs?

B767Driver · December 1st, 2005, 08:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

I still think you guys are all on drugs...hehe.

If you do the procedure turn, don't you still have to maintain 2000 to TBONE? 2000 is the procedure turn altitude. Intercept the LOC inbound after the procedure turn and you're still at 2000 until TBONE, then down to 1400. If you do the procedure turn and upon intercepting the LOC, you are inside TBONE, then I'd agree, you are good down to 1400.

Or am I the one on drugs?

I'd agree with that. It seems to me, though, that TBONE should be listed in the profile view as a stepdown fix since it is located inside the 15nm PT limit. If they had done that...I'd see no confusion at all.

VicariousLiving · December 15th, 2005, 06:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by B767Driver

I'd agree with that. It seems to me, though, that TBONE should be listed in the profile view as a stepdown fix since it is located inside the 15nm PT limit. If they had done that...I'd see no confusion at all.

TBONE isn't listed on the profile because TBONE only applies to the SWAN IAF route.

FWIW, if the aircraft arrives via the ENA IAF, then once the procedure turn is complete (remain within 15 nm ENA) and established inbound on the LOC the aircraft may descend to and maintain 1400' until crossing FREDE.

pilot602 · December 15th, 2005, 11:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

I still think you guys are all on drugs...hehe.

If you do the procedure turn, don't you still have to maintain 2000 to TBONE? 2000 is the procedure turn altitude. Intercept the LOC inbound after the procedure turn and you're still at 2000 until TBONE, then down to 1400. If you do the procedure turn and upon intercepting the LOC, you are inside TBONE, then I'd agree, you are good down to 1400.

Or am I the one on drugs?

The way I interpret the plate is if you're on the arc you remain at 2,000 until you have positive course guidance (on the LOC) then you can drop to 1400 and intercept the GS.

I would drop to the 1400. Why? False GS.The chart depicts the FAF/GS intercept alt for the ILS at 1400 and gives you the "cross reference" altitude above the GS depiction (notice there are two 1400 printed at FREDE). The plate wants you at 1400 to catch the GS staying at 2000 is technically deviating from the printed procedure.

If you're doing a PT you can drop to 1400 as soon as you are inbound on the LOC. As long as you remain inside 15 DME.

If you're coming straight in (NoPT) stay at 2,000 until TBONE then dump it to 1400. Why? Because the plate says to.

DE727UPS · December 15th, 2005, 17:07

"If you're doing a PT you can drop to 1400 as soon as you are inbound on the LOC. As long as you remain inside 15 DME"

Looking at the profile view supports your argument.

I don't think looking at the plan view does if you notice the min altitude inside 8DME is 1400. Also, the transition from Swan keeps you at 2000 until Tbone. Say you do a procedure turn and end up 12 miles out from the VOR on the LOC inbound. Look at the plan view. It shows 1400 inside the 8DME. I'd say that implies 2000 outside the 8DME, procedure turn or no.

That conflicts with the profile view. I'd use the most conservative route given conflicting data.

November 30th, 2005, 00:39	#1
av8rmsu Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Pickwick Lake Posts: 448	When would you descend? You vectored to intercept the ILS 19R localizer into Kenai. When would you descend to 1400? http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0511/01235I19R.PDF i hope this link works

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November 30th, 2005, 00:52	#2
DE727UPS Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 6,514	Well. If you are established on the LOC and inside TBONE, you are good to 1400, if you have an approach clearance. DME is off the VOR, not the LOC. A Beech 99 crew got killed in Spokane once for messing that part up and it should be in big bold letters on every approach chart.

November 30th, 2005, 00:54	#3
av8rmsu Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Pickwick Lake Posts: 448	what if you are doing ther procedure turn and outside TBONE on the inbound

November 30th, 2005, 00:55	#4
av8rmsu Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Pickwick Lake Posts: 448	DME is not required "ADF or DME required"

November 30th, 2005, 00:56	#5
av8rmsu Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Pickwick Lake Posts: 448	This is not a trick question for anyone...i'm just trying to get some different points of view.

November 30th, 2005, 01:01	#6
jeskoe Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Atwater, CA Posts: 86	The way I see it, if you are flying the procedure turn, once you are established inbound, you can begin your descent down to 1400 until intercepting your glide slope, even if you haven't reached FREDE. If you are vectored to final, they will say, "maintain 2000 until established, cleared for ILS approach," I maintain 2000 until intercepting the glide slope.

November 30th, 2005, 01:17	#8
jeskoe Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Atwater, CA Posts: 86	In my "limited" experience, they will have you intercept the localizer at a 20 or 30 degree angle. For example, your last vector will be "44Z, turn right heading 220, maintain 2000 until established, cleared for ILS 19R approach. When I do turn and intercept the glide slope, the glide slope is still going to be well above me. (I don't think they vector you onto the final approach course above the glide slope.) Then I will intercept the glide slope at 2000 feet. Obviously, this is going to happen before I reach FREDE.

November 30th, 2005, 01:20	#9
av8rmsu Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Pickwick Lake Posts: 448	but remember that ATC is not having you turn to intercept the GS but the localizer

November 30th, 2005, 02:45	#10
DE727UPS Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 6,514	Inside TBONE inbound, you'd always be good down to 1400, but you need DME for TBONE. Without DME, and with vectors to the LOC inbound, you'd stay at the ATC assigned altitude until intercepting LOC, then follow the GS down. A LOC only approach gets ugly. You gotta identify FREDE with an NDB/DME bearing? Wouldn't give me the warm fuzzies. I'd probably maintain 2000 to the VOR, but then you'd be high, so I don't know. What I can't figure out is why it says DME or ADF required, gives lower mins for DME or ADF, but also gives LOC mins without DME or ADF, which I thought was required. Vectors to the LOC outbound. Is that what you asked? Not sure I'd accept that as how would you know when to do your procedure turn? Doesn't make any sense.

November 30th, 2005, 03:09	#12
DE727UPS Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 6,514	Yeah. I think I know what you're talking about. I've seen a few guys, once on the LOC, descend down to the min legal altitiude on the chart for LOC only and then intercept the GS from there. I think it's better to maintain the higher altitiude until intercepting the GS and just follow it down. That's how most guys do it. If ATC said "maintain 2000 until established, cleared for the approach" you still be good down to 1400 inside TBONE since an approach clearance allows you to descend to any charted altitude. I like to say "stay at the minimum altitude on any solid black line" But, why descend early if your plan is to intercept the GS anyway. If it's LOC only, yeah, I'd get down ASAP in all cases, but not on an ILS. Ask your Capts why the approach has LOC mins without ADF or DME when ADF or DME is required? That's the one I don't get.

November 30th, 2005, 11:29	#13
B767Driver Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,846	If being vectored to final, you can descend to 1400MSL when within 15nm of ENA and within 1/2 scale loc deflection.

November 30th, 2005, 14:09	#15
DE727UPS Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 6,514	"If being vectored to final, you can descend to 1400MSL when within 15nm of ENA and within 1/2 scale loc deflection." I think I see your logic on the 15nm thing, but I'm thinking 2000MSL, not 1400. Isn't the 1400 based on the 8DME fix?

November 30th, 2005, 14:18	#16
DE727UPS Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 6,514	"Jepp only has the 380' minimum with the NDB...not available with the DME" So, ADF or DME is always required based on the note at the top of the plan view, but the 380 is based on if you do have ADF in the minimums section. Gotcha. Can get lower with ADF than DME on a non-precision? And you are identifing the FAF with a crossing NDB bearing unless you have DME, but NDB still gets you lower? Alaska is a weird place..... (thank God for LNAV/VNAV, hehe) Does Jepp show different altitudes outside TBONE, ref our 1400 vs 2000 debate?

December 1st, 2005, 00:20	#20
cime_sp Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: ATL Posts: 777	If you ask me it's all kind if trivial....why WOULDN'T you fly the glidelsope down??? Stay as high as you can for as long as you can..you're not on fire. Let me see, I have this jacked up approach that I can guess what the stepdown is or I can use this super-accurate guide that assures me obstacle clearance all the way to the runway!!! Also, it is MUCH easier and smoother to follow the GS from the start than to pull back the power, descend, level off at a lower altitude, add power, pull back power descend down the glideslope, etc...

December 1st, 2005, 01:40	#21
DE727UPS Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 6,514	I still think you guys are all on drugs...hehe. If you do the procedure turn, don't you still have to maintain 2000 to TBONE? 2000 is the procedure turn altitude. Intercept the LOC inbound after the procedure turn and you're still at 2000 until TBONE, then down to 1400. If you do the procedure turn and upon intercepting the LOC, you are inside TBONE, then I'd agree, you are good down to 1400. Or am I the one on drugs?

December 15th, 2005, 17:07	#25
DE727UPS Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 6,514	"If you're doing a PT you can drop to 1400 as soon as you are inbound on the LOC. As long as you remain inside 15 DME" Looking at the profile view supports your argument. I don't think looking at the plan view does if you notice the min altitude inside 8DME is 1400. Also, the transition from Swan keeps you at 2000 until Tbone. Say you do a procedure turn and end up 12 miles out from the VOR on the LOC inbound. Look at the plan view. It shows 1400 inside the 8DME. I'd say that implies 2000 outside the 8DME, procedure turn or no. That conflicts with the profile view. I'd use the most conservative route given conflicting data.