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July 7th, 2004, 16:13
| #1 |
| Senior Member  Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Prescott, AZ
Posts: 928
|  PIC Question I'm drawing a complete blank on something here, and I'm hoping one of you guys with FAR smarts could help me out. I conducted my spin training in a Citabria (tailwheel). After the flight, the instructor logged my flight time as both dual received and PIC. I do not have my tailwheel endorsement, however, since I'm rated in category and class and had an instructor on-board, can I leave that PIC time in my logbook? I can't seem to find any clear answers in the FARs. Thanks for the replies.  |
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July 7th, 2004, 16:19
| #2 |
| Old Skool  Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia
Posts: 12,478
| Re: PIC Question Log it, without a doubt. |
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July 7th, 2004, 20:02
| #3 |
| Moderator  Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: chicago
Posts: 4,168
| Re: PIC Question It's in 61.something or other. Under 'logging of flight time'. Anyway like you said if you're rated in cat. and class and are sole manip you can log it as pic. |
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July 7th, 2004, 21:19
| #4 |
| Old Skool  Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Memphis, TN
Posts: 13,634
 | Re: PIC Question Sounds a lot like when I asked about logging complex PIC time a while ago. I think we decided that since you were cat/class, you could log it as PIC. You just couldn't ACT as PIC. Did I get it right that time? |
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July 8th, 2004, 07:16
| #5 |
| Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: -
Posts: 129
| Re: PIC Question [ QUOTE ] Sounds a lot like when I asked about logging complex PIC time a while ago. I think we decided that since you were cat/class, you could log it as PIC. You just couldn't ACT as PIC. Did I get it right that time? [/ QUOTE ] Perfectly. It is a well established that LOGGING PIC in this situation only comes down to whether you are sole manipulator of the controls in an aircraft you are rated for (Category/Class only; no need for any endorsement and irrespective of weather conditions). ACTING PIC requires category/class AND all the endorsements and/or "other stuff" (instrument rating if on an IFR FP, etc.). |
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July 8th, 2004, 09:15
| #6 |
| Senior Member  Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: BOSTON
Posts: 451
| Re: PIC Question I am having the same problem with my CFI. He logged the multi prep flights as PIC and Dual and now that I am onto instrument, in the single, he has logged it as dual. I am planning on talking to him tomm morning. And I learned a valuable lesson here....look at your log book after the CIF signs it...dont wait a couple of days!!!!  |
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July 8th, 2004, 11:02
| #7 |
| Old Skool  Join Date: May 2003 Location: Denver Colorado
Posts: 2,970
| Re: PIC Question [ QUOTE ] I am having the same problem with my CFI. He logged the multi prep flights as PIC and Dual and now that I am onto instrument, in the single, he has logged it as dual. [/ QUOTE ]Now I'm confused. What aircraft ratings did you have when you were doing the multi prep flights? And what aircraft ratings do you have now while working on instruments in the single? It's not unusual for CFIs to get it wrong. With as many discussions as we have about them, folks who are in online groups like this one actually understand the rules better than the average unconnected pilot or CFI (or at least they get corrected immediately). If you attend an live FIRC where it is being discussed, the rules of logging, as simple as they =really= are, can be really hard to understand. It can be difficult to =always= keep the rules about writing numbers in a column in a logbook while sitting at a desk with a beer in your hand completely separate in your mind from the rules about who is permitted to exercise ultimate authority over a flight. |
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July 8th, 2004, 11:57
| #8 |
| Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: BOSTON
Posts: 451
| Re: PIC Question I had my PSEL while training for ther multi and now I am a Private Multi rated pilot working on my IRA. |
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July 8th, 2004, 13:05
| #9 |
| Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Prescott, AZ
Posts: 928
| Re: PIC Question Thanks for the replies everyone. [ QUOTE ] I had my PSEL while training for ther multi and now I am a Private Multi rated pilot working on my IRA. [/ QUOTE ] Sounds like your CFI got something all screwy. If you weren't rated in category/class, then you can't log PIC any time. While I was doing my PPMEL, my time was logged as dual received only. Did you say that he's not logging you as PIC in a single while you're doing your instrument? Man, have a talk with that guy. |
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July 8th, 2004, 13:07
| #10 |
| Old Skool Join Date: May 2003 Location: Denver Colorado
Posts: 2,970
| Re: PIC Question [ QUOTE ] I had my PSEL while training for ther multi and now I am a Private Multi rated pilot working on my IRA. [/ QUOTE ]Then that's a bit weird. He had you log PIC when you were not entitled to and didn't have you log it when you were? |
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July 8th, 2004, 14:29
| #11 |
| Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: BOSTON
Posts: 451
| Re: PIC Question Thats my point as well...Weather has been bad the last two days so I was taking all the junk out of my flight bag when I noticed the error in my logbook...tomm morning the white out is coming out. thanks for the look and help |
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July 8th, 2004, 14:41
| #12 |
| Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Prescott, AZ
Posts: 928
| Re: PIC Question [ QUOTE ] Thats my point as well...Weather has been bad the last two days so I was taking all the junk out of my flight bag when I noticed the error in my logbook...tomm morning the white out is coming out. thanks for the look and help [/ QUOTE ] Don't use white-out in your logbook. Just make a single line through the error. You want future employers (and any other curious people) to know that you're being honest. |
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July 8th, 2004, 21:34
| #13 |
| Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Memphis, TN
Posts: 13,634
| Re: PIC Question I'm doing multi-training right now, and my CFI doesn't log me any PIC. Not rated in that class, so I can't log it.....yet. Now, if I were to fly as the sole occupant, then I could, but the insurance company would freak. |
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July 8th, 2004, 21:40
| #14 |
| Senior Member  Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: South Dakota
Posts: 477
| Re: PIC Question Gotta love going for your multi... you get screwed all around. You can't log it as PIC, you pay twice as much for an aircraft that only goes 1.4 times as fast... not to mention that half the time, you've got one of the engines feathered or simulated feather- so you may as well call it a single engine. Then, when all is said and done and you've passed your checkride... you can't even rent the plane because you don't meet the insurance requirements! |
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July 9th, 2004, 09:44
| #15 |
| Senior Member  Join Date: May 2003 Location: Colorado Springs
Posts: 813
| Re: PIC Question I had 90 hours of Multi time before the insurance comp. would let me instruct in the company twin. I've only had 1 multi student since then but we're in the process of getting a part 141commercial multi add on program. Hopefully that will bring more business. |
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July 9th, 2004, 14:17
| #16 |
| Senior Member  Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: abe
Posts: 863
| Re: PIC Question [ QUOTE ] I'm drawing a complete blank on something here, and I'm hoping one of you guys with FAR smarts could help me out. I conducted my spin training in a Citabria (tailwheel). After the flight, the instructor logged my flight time as both dual received and PIC. I do not have my tailwheel endorsement, however, since I'm rated in category and class and had an instructor on-board, can I leave that PIC time in my logbook? I can't seem to find any clear answers in the FARs. Thanks for the replies. [/ QUOTE ] as long as you hold at least a recreational certificate with an airplane single engine land rating, you can log PIC in the citabria, if you were the sole manipulator of the controls. 14 CFR 61.51(e)(i) you need only be rated for category and class to log PIC time. To act as PIC is an entirely different matter. |
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