Time on the runway?

[block30]

Greetings,

I think I originally posted this in the wrong place, so I apologize to all for that. None the less, I here is my question;

One of the controllers at my home airport complained someone stayed on the runway too long for a stop and go. I asked how long a pilot has, and they replied 33 seconds.

This seems strange. I can't reference this in the AIM nor the 7110.65. Is this an LOA thing? Is the controller just making this up?

I'd like to know so I can pass this along to the training students and instructors.

Best,

[Mike H]

I've never heard of any such time limit, however until you clear the runway, the controller can't clear anybody else to land.

Also not sure what you mean by stop-and-go's. Was the pilot landing, stopping on the runway & then taking off again without exiting the runway?

[N519AT]

Originally Posted by Mike H

Also not sure what you mean by stop-and-go's. Was the pilot landing, stopping on the runway & then taking off again without exiting the runway?

Yup. That's a stop and go.

[Mike H]

I don't see the point of stop & go. Even on a nice, long runway, why wouldn't you just do a touch & go? Or if you're needing the full stop landing, then just exit the runway & taxi back to the end- you'll come to a full stop at some point in the taxi, and you can make the controller's life a little easier.

[tjvpa28]

My school does stop and goes to meet the "full stop" landing requirement at night, although I think it defeats the purpose and full stop taxi backs should be used.

[CFIT99]

just saves time....not much time...but time none the less

[Mike H]

Originally Posted by tjvpa28

My school does stop and goes to meet the "full stop" landing requirement at night, although I think it defeats the purpose and full stop taxi backs should be used.

Brilliant. Since it's at night, you're neither certain of how much runway you used landing & stopping, nor how much is left to take off

[ATC RET 2003]

Originally Posted by Mike H

until you clear the runway, the controller can't clear anybody else to land.

Not necessarily:

From "The Book"

3-10-3. SAME RUNWAY SEPARATION
a. Separate an arriving aircraft from another
aircraft using the same runway by ensuring that the
arriving aircraft does not cross the landing threshold
until one of the following conditions exists or unless
authorized in para 3-10-10, Altitude Restricted Low
Approach.
1. The other aircraft has landed and is clear of
the runway. Between sunrise and
sunset, if you can determine distances by reference to
suitable landmarks and the other aircraft has landed,
it need not be clear of the runway if the following
minimum distance from the landing threshold exists:
REFERENCE-
P/CG Term- Clear of the Runway.
Same Runway Separation
(a) When a Category I aircraft is landing
behind a Category I or II- 3,000 feet.
(b) When a Category II aircraft is landing
behind a Category I or II- 4,500 feet.

[N519AT]

Originally Posted by Mike H

Brilliant. Since it's at night, you're neither certain of how much runway you used landing & stopping, nor how much is left to take off

When you have a 10,600 ft runway you don't really care about that in a 172 unless you landed in the amber lights at the end of the runway.

[tjvpa28]

Originally Posted by Mike H

Brilliant. Since it's at night, you're neither certain of how much runway you used landing & stopping, nor how much is left to take off

Yes we are.

[BajtheJino]

Originally Posted by Mike H

I don't see the point of stop & go.

Say I want to practice a short field landing. I come to a stop and then want to do a soft field take off. Or another reason that works just fine-because I wanted to.

Originally Posted by Mike H

Even on a nice, long runway, why wouldn't you just do a touch & go?

Stop and go's are just another way for the student to get used to the airplane. Plus its nice to shake it up once and a while. Stop and go, touch and go's, full stop taxi backs...variety is nice.

Originally Posted by Mike H

Or if you're needing the full stop landing, then just exit the runway & taxi back to the end- you'll come to a full stop at some point in the taxi, and you can make the controller's life a little easier.

This isn't making the controllers life difficult.

Originally Posted by Mike H

Brilliant. Since it's at night, you're neither certain of how much runway you used landing & stopping, nor how much is left to take off

What? How can you not know? I mean sure, you're not going to know the exact footage but unless you have an airport diagram that lists the take off distances from taxi ways/intersection you don't know anyways. Or if there is a tower they can give you the "more than X feet for takeoff"
But regardless one should always have a rough idea of how much you have left.

[tjvpa28]

Originally Posted by BajtheJino

Or another reason that works just fine-because I wanted to.

Originally Posted by BajtheJino

What? How can you not know? I mean sure, you're not going to know the exact footage but unless you have an airport diagram that lists the take off distances from taxi ways/intersection you don't know anyways. Or if there is a tower they can give you the "more than X feet for takeoff"
But regardless one should always have a rough idea of how much you have left.

[mshunter]

Originally Posted by BajtheJino

Say I want to practice a short field landing. I come to a stop and then want to do a soft field take off. Or another reason that works just fine-because I wanted to.


Stop and go's are just another way for the student to get used to the airplane. Plus its nice to shake it up once and a while. Stop and go, touch and go's, full stop taxi backs...variety is nice.


This isn't making the controllers life difficult.


What? How can you not know? I mean sure, you're not going to know the exact footage but unless you have an airport diagram that lists the take off distances from taxi ways/intersection you don't know anyways. Or if there is a tower they can give you the "more than X feet for takeoff"
But regardless one should always have a rough idea of how much you have left.

Originally Posted by tjvpa28

Yes we are.

Originally Posted by N519AT

When you have a 10,600 ft runway you don't really care about that in a 172 unless you landed in the amber lights at the end of the runway.

Originally Posted by Mike H

Brilliant. Since it's at night, you're neither certain of how much runway you used landing & stopping, nor how much is left to take off

Has everyone forgotten about the distance remaining signs?

[Houston]

Originally Posted by Mike H

I don't see the point of stop & go.

Assuming runway length is not an issue, stopping also allows a more thoughtful cleanup of a complex airplane and reduces the potential for inadvertent gear retraction.

[BajtheJino]

Originally Posted by mshunter

Has everyone forgotten about the distance remaining signs?

Lots o' airports do not have them.

[aevfo]

Originally Posted by Houston

Assuming runway length is not an issue, stopping also allows a more thoughtful cleanup of a complex airplane and reduces the potential for inadvertent gear retraction.

EXACTLY!!!!!!!

[Mike H]

Originally Posted by Houston

Assuming runway length is not an issue, stopping also allows a more thoughtful cleanup of a complex airplane and reduces the potential for inadvertent gear retraction.

So does exiting the runway & taxiing back.

Going back the opening post, there's no mention made of a complex aircraft or 10000ft runways, so maybe we could try sticking to the original premise and the original problem.

That said, if the controller has an issue with excessive time stopped on the runway, the options might be to amend the clearance to "exit the runway and taxi back for takeoff", or next time around the pattern, simply not clear a stop & go and offer either a touch & go, or a full stop-taxi back landing

[ozziecat35]

When I soloed, it was the Aero Club's policy to have the student do stop and go's, t & g's were not permitted as a student pilot. This was also on a 12,000 foot runway at Osan AFB in Korea in a 172...so no real danger there.

[PGT]

Originally Posted by Mike H

So does exiting the runway & taxiing back.

Going back the opening post, there's no mention made of a complex aircraft or 10000ft runways, so maybe we could try sticking to the original premise and the original problem.

That said, if the controller has an issue with excessive time stopped on the runway, the options might be to amend the clearance to "exit the runway and taxi back for takeoff", or next time around the pattern, simply not clear a stop & go and offer either a touch & go, or a full stop-taxi back landing

Taxi backs waste time, simple as that.

Cleared for the option is the best way to go.

[bLizZuE]

I will sometimes use stop and goes during a check ride to allow for a simulated single engine landing, followed by a performance take-off, or simulating an engine failure prior to rotation.

[ClearedToTakeoff]

Is the integrity of a stop and go really to be debated? Wow... this is petty. It has a purpose, it's an approved action, and if you are cleared for it, make use of it. No point to full stop taxi back if you can just get a stop and go. Save time, get more training in. Wow

[PGT]

Originally Posted by ClearedToTakeoff

Is the integrity of a stop and go really to be debated? Wow... this is petty. It has a purpose, it's an approved action, and if you are cleared for it, make use of it. No point to full stop taxi back if you can just get a stop and go. Save time, get more training in. Wow

My thoughts exactly when reading this thread.

[aevfo]

Originally Posted by Mike H

So does exiting the runway & taxiing back.

When you are instructing you are in the business of teaching the students to fly, not wasting their time. It would take .1-.2 to full stop taxi-back as opposed to stop and go on the runway if tower approves.

Going back the opening post, there's no mention made of a complex aircraft or 10000ft runways, so maybe we could try sticking to the original premise and the original problem.

Guess what, you asked earlier why you would use the stop and go and someone provided you an answer. Another answer would be so you can practice performance t/o's such as short and soft field. Another may be company policy, and the list continues. Kinda surprising in 450 hours you have never done a stop and go and are unable to figure out why you would use one.

That said, if the controller has an issue with excessive time stopped on the runway, the options might be to amend the clearance to "exit the runway and taxi back for takeoff", or next time around the pattern, simply not clear a stop & go and offer either a touch & go, or a full stop-taxi back landing

[CN94559]

I have never really done stop n' goes, but a few instructors I've talked to like them best because...

1. you're not dealing with having to waste time taxing back to the runway, wasting students time and money
2. Some students find touch n goes too fast to be able to think about landing, cleaning up on the roll while keeping it straight on centerline, and once clean putting the power back in to take off again.

Stop n goes make a lot of sense. Done.

[BaronPete]

Originally Posted by Mike H

I don't see the point of stop & go. Even on a nice, long runway, why wouldn't you just do a touch & go? Or if you're needing the full stop landing, then just exit the runway & taxi back to the end- you'll come to a full stop at some point in the taxi, and you can make the controller's life a little easier.

My instructor doesn't like or condone touch and goes. According to him (he's an old retired military fellow) students will often get behind the airplane when trying to reset trim to takeoff settings, bring up flaps, push in carb heat, check instruments, etc and will result in accidents.

I'm sure most people will groan, but unless a fast aircraft is bearing down on short final, I'll do the stop and go as well if the tower is ok with it.